HD10 as a Cinema Tool
 

It appears that the JVC will be usable for low-end cinema production. I expected it all along but did not want to be too praising. I hoped that a little criticism could possibly make these people improve on the product prior to the US introduction, but that may not been the case. So we may be stuck with weak colors. That will give the picture certain unique quality -- certainly usable to project to a movie theater screen, and that's what counts. With the 720/30p distribution now available at Landmark Theaters, the JVC will become a major tool for independent filmmakers. The next step will be Varicam, for $ 80K min with a lens -- a little sharper, with excellent colors -- 20x more expensive.

I'm still waiting to see more footage before I'll go that far, but I have to say that the "Jellyfish" footage blew me away. It does seem like a possibility that it'll be a tool for very low end cinema production, and if 30p projection at cinemas becomes a reality, maybe there'll be an outlet for it.
I think that the 2/3" CMOS camera, maybe coupled with this HD MPEG-2 tape compression, will not be far behind though, and that will really do the trick for me.

Paul, the 30p projection at Landmark is already a reality.

Other new HD cameras
 

Well, I guess the HD revolution is definately on; with the announcement of the JVC mini-HD camera (and the fact that everyone seems inclined to shooting on high-end HD for movies and shows), a lot of companies are jumping aboard the HD revolution. And not just normal video companies, but others like Olympus, Mitchell, companies that do high-end imaging. Here are some links for you to peruse. The one that wows me is Mitchell's HD "disc" that fits into, get this, the magazine compartment of an Arri 16SR 16mm camera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!

heath

http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_2980.shtml
http://www.towersemi.com/press/apr0402.html
http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/1007/013.html
http://www.olympus.co.jp/Special/Info/n020522aE.html
http://hugecgi.com/cgi-bin/ibc_daily...=21406&issue=5

ps-the 10 mg Cinealta prototype is going to Lucas/Star Wars 3, but because Sony pissed off 700 HD camera owners by releasing the Cinealta so soon after (in 2001) the 700, the new Cinealta won't come out until late 2004, early 2005.

HD10 as a Cinema Tool and Future Indie Formats
 

There are 720p consumer sets. Check Panasonic. I also think that Samsung makes a projector with this resolution.

You do not need full 1280 horizontal pixels. This camera resolves 960 pixels only.

The screen size is irrelevant. The resolution and image quality matters. With a small screen you sit closer; with a larger one further back. The ideal distance is as close as possible without seeing the scanning pattern, etc. HDTV allows you to sit closer to the screen than TV for the same screen size. The closer distance allows a lot stronger visual impact. Or use a larger distance with a larger screen.

The image is sharp enough to project to cinema-size screen. Digi Beta looks OK when projected to a smaller cinema screen. This camcorder image will look as sharp or sharper than Digi Beta. Varicam image converted to 30p has bit rate 50 Mbps. Varicam has a 3 CCDs with full 720p resolution.

MPEG2 is a more efficient compression technique than the DV-based Varicam type. Once MPEG2 HD camcorders with better resolving chips and better MPEG2 processors became available, the image will be as good as on Varicam. And Varicam image looks OK on a large theater screen. The horizontal resolution of the JVC falls between Varicam and Digibeta. The vertical resolution is very close to Vericam.

I would say that by next NAB some company will come out with a MPEG2 HD camcorder image-wise equal to Varicam. The prosumer and pro DV market will be in the future replaced with MPEG2 HD. It will not take that long. The pro cameras will use (3) 2/3" CCDs. The low-end cameras will use one small chip, fixed lens, etc. But it will all be MPEG2 HD, with better processors than the JVC uses now, of course.

At that time the Varicam and CineAlta will drop in price by some 50%. We'll have equivalent of PD150 in HD, blu-ray HD DVD based, with excellent MPEG2 processors and superb image in a year or 2. The image will be sufficient to show on a large theater screen.

We'll have the following formats or their equivalents, at that time, that will be useable for digital cinema production:

1. MPEG2 HD DVD 19 Mbps at 30p or 24p for student and lowest end indie film production.
2. Varicam HD with 40 Mbps at 24p for very lower end indie film production.
3. CineAlta HD with 110 Mbps at 24 p for indie film production
4. CineAlta SR 4:4:4 for higher end indie cinema production
5. Dalsa type camera with 3 CCDs for high end cinema production

SD and film will be dead for production. It will not take that long.

Projection will be digital in the future and lowest speed used for filming will be 48 fps.

RE: Nu-View
 

I have actually used the Nu-View adapter, and I can say with a certain amount of confidence that it would be completely unsuitable for the HD-1/10U.

The problem is that the camera mounting hole in the back of the Nu-View is so small (37mm native, I believe), that your field of view is seriously restricted.

I tried the N-V on my Sony VX-2000, which has a 58mm thread. Unless I was on the far end of telephoto, the edges of the unit would vingette into frame. Completely useless for any kind of real-world application.

It's really a shame, too. The idea of shooting 3D video, then using shutterglasses to view on a TV is really cool, and could work under better circumstances. The problem is that NTSC, field-separated 3D is of questionable quality, even when done under the best conditions. Now 480p, at 60fps, giving you 30 discrete frames for each eye - that would be something! Or better yet, a 60fps HD-rez signal split into left and right-eye views. Now THAT would get people's attention.

If you absolutely have to get the N-V adapter to start shooting 3D, I recommend that you use the DV camera with the smallest possible filter ring, and be aware that shooting 3D requires a lot of careful attention to things like convergence - things you don't normally have to deal with shooting "flat" video.

It might be more efficient bit it also loses quality unless you
emply high bitrates with only P frames (for the editing). I
personally prefer the DV format since it has a "grown up" market
for it.

Then again, DV bandwidth must increase to at least 50 mbit/s
to stay in business.

JVC GR-HD1U vs DVX100 simple test analysis.
 

These tests are material from a film by Eric Escobar. These are very crude tests. They are by no means official and are just done to see very crude simple surface feed back on the JVC HD camera vs. a regular mini DV SD camera like the DVX100.

The Link:
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Sold my XL-1, looking to buy HD10
 

I hope this distributor has another one in Boca Raton, FL on Monday or Tuesday when I return from my 2 week, non-stop edit session in L.A. (I'm dead, no time off for a month!). I'll demo it, hopefully, and if it's good, I'll write a review here and buy it from them ASAP.

heath

Attention Steve Mullen, more questions about the HD10
 

We're probably repeating ourselves here, but this will alleviate some fears.

1. Everything on the HD10 is both auto and manual, right? None of the same issues on the iris that people keep having on the HD1, right? Manual audio, focus, iris, f-stop, white balance, etc.?

Thanks,

heath

Summary of the HD10 guide
 

1. It looks like in HD and SD modes, you can only shoot 16:9, which isn't too big a deal for filmmakers and others. Heck, at my TV station, our HD floor cameras (shoot anchors), they had to digitally put up a 4:3 "box" to show the camera crew the proper format, because the viewfinders are in 16:9, which is what we're broadcasting on. Apparently, the SD/DV signal gets shifted to 4:3, while the HD signal stays in true 16:9. Also, we have Tompson HD cameras, with the little "pipe/cable" out the back, so it looks a lot like the Viper HD camera.

2. There's a built-in digital wind cutter-downer (quite a technical term there), but I'd rather rely on a microphone windscreen.

3. They talk about the exposure lock on page 45, but I don't quite get it. I'm more of a man who learns better from seeing it done than reading about it. And yet I have an overactive imagination... ;-)

4. Page 46 deals with manual shutter and manual iris. (The drawings look like some of the "celebs" out of South Park...) Manual focus and manual zoom are on page 47. The iris and shutter sounds like a pain in the @$$, no wheels or buttons like on my XL-1. It's all done digitally. Select the power switch to a certain setting, press the Lock button, use viewfinder/LCD, press S/A once (a button) and do it all digitally. That's the shutter, the iris is the same, except you hit the S/A button twice. This sounds tricky, and many times, I will have to adjust on the fly and this doesn't make it easy. Nuts... The focus and zoom you have to turn off the auto in the camera, then adjust physically, which is a HECK of a lot better than doing the iris/shutter.

5. White balance looks easy.

6. Some typical effects found in consumer cameras. Yawn, since we shouldn't do anything to our initial image captures. Kind of a waste, maybe?

7. The advanced section looks like fun; you CAN do the optical stabilization, but it isn't a switch like on the XL-1 (sorry to compare so much), but you do it digitally, yet another slight hassle I'm sure I'll get over.

That's about all I found really interesting, for those of you who don't want to go through 92 pages! The iris/shutter is annoying, but if the shutter I choose can be locked, I can live with doing the wheel/digital adjusting of the iris. But a seperate thing would be nice, plus more physical switches to turn on and off auto zoom, focus, iris, shutter, etc.

heath
www.mpsdigital.com

Manual Control 101
 

The following applies to most consumer cameras -- and most likely applies to both the HD1 and HD10. But don't assme this is true about the JVC until someone tests it.

1. If you want MANUAL control you will power-up the camera in the M position. This is done once!

2. With a frame-rate of 30fps there are only two shutter-speeds you need when shooting under artificial lighting -- 1/60th in 60Hz power countries and either 1/50th or 1/100th in 50Hz power countries.

Otherwise, for NTSC cameras you want 1/60th S. Any slower and you will get blur. Any faster than 1/100th and you'll get strobing.

NOW IF YOU LIKE BLUR AND STROBE -- FEEL FREE TO SET ANY SPEED YOU WANT!

After setting a shutter-speed you, of course, want it to stay until YOU change it. So press S/A ONCE to set your shutter-speed. Dial in the speed you want. Do not press S/A again. (You are now using Shutter Priority AE.)

3. With shutter-speed locked, the camera will auto set the iris using the built-in light meter.

4. If you want to set the iris to control depth-of-field, press S/A TWICE and set the aperature. Do not press S/A again. With aperature locked, the camera will auto set the shutter-speed using the built-in light meter. (You are now using Aperature Priority AE.)

5. MODS COMING SOON.

6. MODS COMING SOON.

7. Press and hold the Exposure Control for 2 seconds. To unlock, press the Exposure Control once.


LAST POINT

If a camera has a good audio limiter AND you match mic sensitivity to the camera's MIC sensitivity -- there is, with 16-bit digital audio, NO need to adjust audio gain.

The limiter keeps the peak level below digital clipping (0dB) while the 16-bit dynamic range handles the entire range of the mic.

Most of us know if we own hi-output (-50dB) or a lo-output (-60dB) mic.

Now we need a spec. for the HD10!

Oh, and we need to know if the HD10 audio has a limiter or AGC. And, you can't go by what a company says. Some call a limiter, AGC -- which it's not. And, even if it is an AGC -- there are DSP-based AGCs that don't pump. Once again, without testing -- nothing can be said about ANY camera.


__________________

As far as i know, they are the same other than a selection for color bars. Plus you can set audio indicators to appear when recording.

Also see Manual Control 101.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : As far as i know, they are the same other than a selection for color bars. Plus you can set audio indicators to appear when recording.

Also see Manual Control 101. -->>>

Thanks, Steve. Hope you all liked my summary of the manual. For those of us who want the quick summaries! :-)

heath

Demoing the HD10 Tues. or Wed.!
 

This company has had the camera (only one) in for a week or two, and I'm going in hopefully tomorrow or Wed. to demo it, along with an HDTV (small one) that I'll return ASAP after I'm done. My full report/review will be up soon after!

heath
www.mpsdigital.com

Excellent Heath! I look forward to the report. Fingers crossed about exposure control on this.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Excellent Heath! I look forward to the report. Fingers crossed about exposure control on this.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________ -->>>

Any advice, Michael or Steve?

heath

The HD10/HD1, what will you do with it (if you buy/rent it)?
 

I figure this might be fun, since we're overly scrutinizing these new cameras. And the fact that I'm bored at work (as usual), why not ask what people would use this camera for.

Me, well, it's funny, I've shelved just about every film I had planned, to focus on our first big budget film (for us, around $300,000), 9:04 AM. And that will be shot on a CineAlta.

So, in the three years I'll be working on 9:04 AM, where will this camera be used? Well, I have some micro movies I want to do, fun stuff to premiere on our website (I'm working on that section with our absent webmasters) and other online places. We'll use it to document the making of 9:04 AM. I'll also shoot DV stuff for my TV station, do things at college with it. And if it's really good (or a competing mini-HD camera that I may buy comes out), we may throw a 35 mm lens on it and use that for 9:04 AM! Who knows?

heath

Re: The HD10/HD1, what will you do with it (if you buy/rent it)?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : I figure this might be fun, since we're overly scrutinizing these new cameras. And the fact that I'm bored at work (as usual), why not ask what people would use this camera for. -->>>

If I end up buying the HD10U (or other HD camcorder that may come out), I will use it some for DVD production. But probably more for shooting video for background imagery or other video to combine into my 3D animation. For most video work I would probably continue to use my XL1S until something with HD resolution capability and equal versatility comes out. At that time I will replace the XL1S.

Three words:

High definition pornography.

Finally getting the camera!
 

Barring no problems, I'll have the HD10 in my hands in about 9 hours! Clips and such to follow that evening.

heath

Got my HD10 (finally!) and a HD1 review in Computer Videomaker!
 

Got the camera, pretty cool; will be shooting later (I'm at work now).

Also, Computer Videomaker (I had a subscription when I was 13--1989--and DV was a distant dream) has an HD1 review. I trust this magazine, as the ad content (and lack of a free subscription) is lower. :-) Here's the jist:

Strengths: HD, progressive scan. Easy to use.

Weaknesses: Limited editing options. Quality depends on TV used.

No mention of the iris, etc. functions, which is interesting. Maybe
this isn't a thorough review....

The summary says it best: A pioneering camera that shoots HD for folks who own HD televisions.

They dig it. For more, check out the July 2003 Computer Videomaker!

heath

Heath's ongoing HD10 review tonight (and beyond)
 

I'll post some stuff up under this thread of the HD10.

First impressions (since testing/demoing it):

1. It's EASY to focus, just like a regular camera.

2. More balanced than the XL-1, since the lens is small. After 4 years of dealing with that, I'm happy to see balance.

3. I put on the lens cap, fired it up, and it screamed, LENS CAP! Nice for the idiots out there (I've done it before, for a couple of seconds then realized how dumb I was).

4. It was easy to put the XLR/handle on.

More later as I record stuff. I get the HD monitor tomorrow (tiny Sharp 15 in. LCD, perfect for editing and field shooting).

heath

More:

The on/off switch is both easy and a pain in the @$$; it can be easy when I'm facing it, hard when I'm trying to do it from an angle, if that makes sense.

The iris thing is tricky, but I haven't used it enough.

I'm interested in what my XL-1 and this camera in DV mode will look like together, same shots and such.

heath

DVHS recommendations?
 

Steve Mullen and everyone else,

Which DVHS deck should I get:

1. The consumer model we've been talking about?

2. The new SR-VD400US that lists the same as the consumer model (but may be cheaper overall)?

Thanx,

heath

That's easy. Unless you need DTS -- save the money.

Get the 30K then have the free firmware upgrade if you get one under S# 157xxxxxxxxx.

24p
 

As I was talking in another thread about this, I took the clips posted on the site here and used Vegas to make them 24p. So far, they look just fine. We need some clips with more movement ot test this, though.

The really cool thing is that Vegas imported the mpeg transport stream right away.

I'm optimstic about the future of pro-sumer HD now. I might not buy this camera, but I know that good stuff is to come having seen this.

Fast motion will definitely give problems going from 30p to 24p. Although Vegas does do a pretty good job. Vegas converts by shuffling the drop frame order to help keep motion jitters more random than a consistent pattern. The consistent pattern is much more noticeable to the human eye/brain.

Going to 24p from the 480p60 SD resolution on this camera is no problem at all.

I've decided not to buy the HD1/HD10U for now. But for any consumer/prosumer and gadget enthusiast people who have a HDTV and also a DVHS deck (or don't mind buying one) this is the perfect camcorder for their home movies and simple editing.

For serious stuff, if it needs to be in HD, I'll go rent a real HD camcorder and then I'll have the control and color range ability I need.

I have played with the footage I took while demoing the camera as well as a lot of what's been posted online - including quite a few of Paul's clips that were just made available. The noise and compression artifacting is just too much to get serious professional results out of this camera - especially if any significant amount of editing or compositing will be done. For home movies with straight edit cuts and minor color correction to put back on DVHS, this camera is awesome.

If JVC had put out this camcorder with a better ergonomic design, better optics, and true manual controls and a variable or adjustable encoding bitrate ability, I would have bought it - even at a bit higher price. This unit does tend to blow out bright areas, but this can be corrected with filters and a little thinking ahead and shadow detail isn't all that great, but color is good for a single chip camcorder and the CCD resolution is less than 10% different from a Varicam and other pro HD camcorders. IMO, what holds this camera back the most is the poor optics. It uses optics that are equivalent to $450 camcorders and it's usually pretty obvious on shots with a lot of fine details.

Anyway, it's great camcorder for what it is and a bad camcorder for what it isn't. I commend JVC on releasing this product, but I think I'll wait for round 2 of the HD camcorder offerings.

ABC reviews GR-HD1
 

I'm not sure this review is that big deal now, when many people got a hold on it already, but here it is:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scite...iew030703.html

All in all, looks like they more like it than hate.
A fairly balanced review in my opinion.

Thanks. I didn't see/read this one yet.

Hmmm, it's called, "Shoot your kids - in high definition video style."

The camera stays in the picture
 

Shocking, but I'm keeping the camera. Though Steve has told me something COMPLETELY different than what Ken Freed said, and it makes sense, I think, I'll keep the camera.

The S/A button isn't something to adjust, right Steve, just whatever the camera feels is right.

And, yes, the XL-1's shutter and aperature adjustments are harsh, happening so quickly you can't use that. So I'll give the HD10 that it's smoother.

heath

When you get an HD monitor you'll be glad you did.

I've been watching movies tonight, and it's amazing how most set-ups are very simple. NO zooms. Very few pans.

Of course, all are carefully lit. It looks like it should be possible for us to figure-out what the optimum light level is for 1/30th. I expect a 1000W light kit will be enough. Especially something that mixes soft fill -- with a key light.

I've also found very dark shadows do not get noise -- the same result I've had with the VX1000. For dramatic a look, keep some areas well lit and others in deep shadow.

ND filters
 

Reviewing what I shot to decide between 1/30th and 1/60th -- I noted that as I expected freeze frames of 1/30th were a tad too full of blur. (Afer all 1/30 is what 18fps silent 8mm used!) Of course, moving objects had far more detail at 1/60th as would be expected. (The DVX100 shoots 30p at 1/60th.)

But I was surprised that static objects at 1/30th didn't look as clear as when I switched to 1/60th.

I suspect that's because the aperature was nearly fully closed at 1/30th. Which says you must use an 8ND or 16ND filter if you want to use 1/30th or 1/60th -- which you do want to do. That should keep the iris from closing too far and lowering image quality.

I suspect 8ND is fine for cloudy days, but 16ND may be needed for sunny days. Anyone who has both, please run some tests comparing them.

Software HD players degrade picture
 

Hi, it's become clear to me since getting my Monivision 720p capable HDTV yesterday and doing comparisons, that the ELecard and VLAN sorftware HD players degrade the image quality of the JVC's output significantly, and introduce a lot of color noise that just isn't there in the original. I would recommend to anyone trying out th JVC cam, that in judging the picture quality, they ONLY view it directly from the camera, or from a DVHS deck connected to a native 720p capable HD monitor. NOT on an "HD Ready TV" which will do conversions, or on a computer monitor. There is a wold of difference in the image quality when viewed this way, which is how it should be viewed. The software players, in doing their on-the-fly resolution conversions, are introducing at least 50-75% of the color noise that is visible on computer monitors. I was amazed at this finding, which I didn't at all expect.

Cheers

I expect that there is nothing wrong with most software decoders, and the problem actually is related to the different gamma curves and constrast ratios of computer monitor vs the intended output display. Standard definition production handles this by having a reference NTSC monitor next to the editing system. Computer monitors will always give false results.

David's precisely right. You will probably find the same phenominon on software DVD players versus stand alone televisions.

The point is valid, however - don't rip on the picture until you see it on an intended display device.

Of course, as I asked in a different thread, when you think about it there really is no good way of getting your material to an HDTV as of yet!

Any ideas why I'm getting video sparkles going to my HD10?
 

This just started happening. I was dumping to tape (DV mode) from my tibook/new 7200 rpm firewire drive on the HD10 (again, DV mode). The first few times, no problem. But lately, I'm getting video sparkles and audio "scratches or glitches." It's not in the computer and the cable isn't bad (just bought a new one today)...

Any ideas? FCP 3, btw.

heath

Eye Tracking from Poyton
 

EXAMPLE: A horizontally moving rectangle and a fixed circle are shot at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter.

Then displayed at 24fps with a two bladed shutter. (Each fame is repeated twice.)

[This is 30p played as 60p.]

An apparent double image forms: When the projector shutter opens a second time on the same frame, your gaze point has already advanced half way to the ["anticipated"] position of the rectangle at the NEXT frame -- thus the rectangle is imaged onto your retina a second time, at a position displaced along the axis the object is moving.

>>>> The eye tracked rectangle doubles-up. <<<<<<<

[The second 1/60th display of 30p works the same way.]

[Note: the faster the object moves, the more your gaze moves, and the farther the displacement of the "double" image.

Slowing the shutter-speed only increases object blur thus turning the two distinct images into two blurred images which obscures them.]

As you track the rectangle while the projector flashes, the circle is flashed onto different positions on the retina: the circle will strobe. The camera usually tracks the motion of a foreground element in the scene; in this case, the rectangle is the foreground and the circle is the background. So the effect is usually called background strobing .

If, as in this example, the background comprises a single, small element, it will be mapped onto the retina in a periodic spatial pattern. [The strobe.]


In cinema, one of the functions of the cinematographer is to prevent excessive background strobing. He or she does this by controlling the speed of moving foreground elements with respect to the camera, and by controlling the visual content of the background. Background strobing only occurs when a foreground element is being eye tracked. If the cinematographer can make a good guess, based on the nature of the scene, on what elements the viewer will track, this will help to minimize the visibility of strobing artifacts.

Poyton goes on to explore how these artifacts will be more visiblw on a large screen rather than a TV -- and how CRTs differ from LCDs/DLPs.

Speculation!
 

Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier?

Re: Speculation!
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier? -->>>

Makes sense, except...It's not on the tape, it's when I'm feeding into the camera. I hooked up my friend's XL-1 to my camera and hard drives, and no problems with the signal.

heath