Various posts concerning GR-HD1U and JY-HD10U
 

I'd like to know what NLE options will be available for editing footage from these cameras.

Since they'll be using MiniDV tapes, the bandwidth will probably be similar to DV and the footage will be transferrable with FireWire, however since the footage will be MPEG (or a mutant relative compression scheme) -compressed, all our standard DV tools, espcially hardware boards like the Storm etc., probably won't apply.

I've whispering to Canopus that PC-platform HD editing would be the next big market since 1998; that may finally come true in 2003/2004 fiscal year...

Difference between GR-HD1U and JY-HD10U
 

So far, as best as I can describe it:

GR-HD1 is from the consumer division, list price of $3500 and has a built-in on-camera stereo mic.

JY-HD10 is from the professional division, list price of $4000 and has a dual-XLR mic adapter integrated into the camera's top handle (similar to Sony PD150, or Canon GL2 with MA300 attached).

Both the GR-HD1 and JY-HD10 share the same lens, CCD and optical image stabilization. The CCD is 1/3rd inch at 1.18 megapixels.

Thanks to Steve Mullen for his explanatory web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c/HD1_HD10.htm

According to Steve Mullen, JVC is providing four Windows XP apps for this camera system, one of them being MPEG Edit Studio Pro 1.0 LE. Developed by the R&D labs of Japan’s KDDI, Edit Studio Pro provides frame-accurate, non-linear editing of SD and HD MPEG-2 files.

More info at http://www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c/HD1_HD10.htm -- sadly, it looks like no Mac compatability as of yet, but hopefully this will change in due course.

Sony HD camcorder in the works
 

Today at the Sony pre-NAB, Sony announced it will offer 3-chip NTSC and PAL Blue laser based camcorders. One camcorder will offer 25mbps DV recording while the other will offer 25Mbps DV plus up to 50Mbps MPEG-2 (IMX) recording.

They will use 12cm discs.

Obviously this technology makes it very easy to come to market with a range of products -- including an 8cm prosumer HD camcorder. Not clear when these might come. I would guess in Japan by mid-year -- so maybe CES 2004 in USA.

I would expect Panasonic to also market a camcorder for the Japanese market. Not sure if it wil be tape or DVD-RAM based. I would bet on DVD-RAM running at 15 to 18Mbps.

Your prices
 

Remember the prices you mention are your prices not ours.

I don't give a number for the pro piece since then it can come back to "bite" me.

Yes there will be more
 

It will take time and the software NLE folks will want to see how many are sold.

I'm sure Apple will work it out.

New Site for JVC HD Camcorder
 

Earthlink suspended access to my site because of too many downloaded bytes.

So below you'll find a way to get to specific pages. Sorry for the confusion.

color matrix of this new cam
 

Why white, green, cyan, and yellow?
What advantage over RGB?
Thanks Steve

Re: color matrix of this new cam
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : Why white, green, cyan, and yellow?
What advantage over RGB?
Thanks Steve -->>>

The WGCY is the filter matrix JVC is using because it delivers high luma and chroma resolution.

A 4 sample window is moved, step-wise, accross all CCD columns -- then down one CCD row, and repeat. At each point, 1 Y sample and 1, each, RGB samples are generated.

So every CCD element yields a luma sample so you get full progressive resolution.

In short 1 chip acts like 3 chips in terms of luma -- and the sample chroma resolution of a 3 chipper is recorded.

So, my man, Steve, does that mean you don't get the 4:1:1 compression of DV with this new camera? Or are you just saying you get a 3CCD picture with a single WGCY chip?

I frame compression
 

the mpeg2 format have an structure like:

IBBBPBBBPBBB or
IBBPBBPBBPBB

in this case I think that is

IBBPBB

I ~ 55 % of data rate
B~ 6,5 % of data rate
P~ 19 % of data rate

I have about 55% of 18.2? Mbits = 10 Mbits (5 frame on 30)
so 1 I frame have about 2 Mbits
so 60 I frame are about 120 Mbits
the dvc pro 100 have 100 Mbits for 60 frame

so

the quality of an I Frame from mpeg2 hd is equal of a dvcpro hd Frame???

Bye Francesco

Is SD not HD
 

the "new" format is an

dvcam or IMX record

on a optical (16GB?) disk!

18 GB = 90 Min * 60 Sec * 27-29 Mbits (Video + Audio +data?)

MPEG2 verses MPEG4
 

Which one's better?

Why MPEG2?

MPEG4's better, more expensive
 

Both compression schemes use interframe (temporal) and intraframe (spatial) compression. MPEG4 achieves transparency at a lower bit rate than does MPEG2, but MPEG4 is also more computationally expensive.

MPEG2, having been the DVD standard, is more widely and more stably supported by chipmakers. The principal reason for the high cost of DVD players in the years 1996-2000 was the unavailability of MPEG2 decoder chips. Now, an MPEG2 codec chip is relatively cheap and that's likely the reason why it would be favored over MPEG4 for a camcorder compression format.

Once 2.5G and 3G mobile phones become standardized, MPEG4 hardware compression solutions will become comparable to MPEG2 chips in price, as these new video-enabled mobile phones all have MPEG4 hardware codecs in them.

Zoom control
 

Does the new JVC HD camcorder have a wired zoom control ( like LANC or Panasonic control)?

ROn Evans

Ron

It does not have a LANC jack or any other auxiliary control interface that I can see.

Update to my JVC site with Blu-Ray DVD info
 

After studying the CCD more, I've updated my site.

Also added a section on the new Sony Blu-Ray DVD recorder which has an i.LINK connector that inputs MPEG-2-TS data.

Enjoy.

Gr-dv4000u
 

Looks like the new Japanese Domestic GR-DV5000U is called the GR-DV4000U instead, for the North/Central/South American markets. Also, the GR-DV3500 has skipped the North American market altogether! Go figure.

http://www.jvc.ca/en/consumer/produc...del=GR-DV4000U

This new model is about 1/3 the price of the JY-HD10U, but yet it has a much better lens, and uses MPEG4 instead of the older MPEG2. Okay, okay, it isn't HD, but is the JY-HD10U really HD?

The older GR-DV3000U and GR-DV3500U have a 1/3.6" CCD. The new GR-DV5000U (Japanese Domestic) and GR-DV4000U (North American stripped down version of the GR-DV5000U), has only a 1/4" CCD. All these cams cams share the same 690K video effective CCD pixels though.

Alan has already noticed something, he writes:

"The DV5000 has mic input and better minimum lux rating (6 lux) than DV3000. Ooopss, one difference found already. The DV5000 has a higher resolution 3.5" LCD (240K)..perhaps the reason why the US version is called DV4000."

Update on JVC
 

Contrary to my earlier belief, the JVC will not shoot in 16:9 when in DV mode. Nor does it have a letterbox FX.

New HD Camcorders
 

HD categories by Mbps Transfer rates:

1. HDTV 720/30p 10 Mbps MPEG2; red laser HD DVD – under 10 Mbps MPEG4

2. HD DV 720/30p 19 Mbps MPEG2. Blue laser HD DVD and DVHS have transfer rates around 26 Mbps and are also MPEG2. This category is all 4:1:1

3. Varicam 720/30p 50 Mbps. Varicam records 720/60p with 100 Mbps but for 720/30p the transfer rate becomes 50 Mbps. This format is 4:2:2

4. CineAlta 185 Mbps

5. CineAlta SR 440 Mbps, D5 375 Mbps

6. Thomson Viper 1,350 Mbps

Category #2 is the most interesting one. This is the category that will replace DV (25 Mbps) and DVD (8 Mbps MPEG2) -- just like DV replaced Hi8. This transformation is beginning to happen right now in the semipro/pro market. The manufacturers are trying to do it quietly so SD sales will not be hurt. The quality of the picture of products in this category falls somewhere between HDTV and Varicam. It is certainly sufficient to produce HDTV content, just as DV is sufficient to produce SDTV content.

The initial products will not be 24p. 30p is OK for NTSC countries and it appears that it may be OK for Europe also. The HDTV broadcast that will start there will apparently be 30p or 60i and the SD equipment sold there appears to be made to work with NTSC also -- VCRs, TVs. The HDTV monitors sold there, per Philips website, do work with 60i and 30p. It appears that the main reason for inclusion of NTSC in their products is because of VHS tapes, etc. that come from the US do not have to be slowed down to 50i.

30p approximates film motion artifacts better than 24p converted to 30p. So if you're after that look, 30p is an advantage, not a shortcoming. If you'd like to show your indie film at festivals, they all have 30p digital projectors; so does an ever increasing number of art houses (movie theaters).

The transition from SD to HD is accelerating fast. First HD DV camcorder will be available in the US in May. First blue laser HD DVD recorder will go on sale in Japan next month. There will be other products available this year. This will allow you to shoot soon HD content inexpensively. That content will not be obsolete in a few years. If you'll shoot in SD, your content will be dated.

Joseph George
Studio HD

Thanks again Joseph. I enjoyed reading your post.

Re: New HD Camcorders
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joseph George : HD categories by Mbps Transfer rates:

2. HD DV 720/30p 19 Mbps MPEG2. Blue laser HD DVD and DVHS have transfer rates around 26 Mbps and are also MPEG2. This category is all 4:1:1 -->>>

These are all 4:2:0 MPEG-2 formats wrapped in a Transport Team wrapper.

HD and SD camceras for high school level classes
 

CAMERA RECOMMENDATIONS FOR A BASIC VIDEO PRODUCTION CLASS – SECONDARY EDUCATIONAL LEVEL

For SD I recommend Sony PD150 or Sony PDX10. The PDX10 has a native 16:9 resolving chip, so in this aspect ratio it will give you significantly better resolution. It was reviewed by Cinematographer and the reviewer liked the picture better than on PD150.

PD150 is around $3K and PDX10 is around $2.5K, I believe; so you'll be able to buy 2 cameras for $5K. PDX10 is rated 7 Lux. PD150 is rated 2 Lux.

You may also want to wait till May for JVC HD10, which is high definition, but needs a lot more light -- is rated 35 Lux and will cost $4000; the consumer version with lower quality mike / mike jacks / handle, but otherwise identical, will cost $3500.

10 lux is about 1 footcandle. Classrooms are usually lit to about 50 FC, which is about 500 Lux so with that amount of lighting the JVC camera should produce superior pictures compared to both of the Sonys.

Unless you'll want to use the camera for documentary work in low-lighted spaces, without additional lighting, which I don't believe is your case, the camera has sufficient low light capability.

Panasonic DVX100 is rated 3 Lux but in its progressive mode this rating becones 24 Lux, because of no gain up. So 35 Lux is not that unreasonable.

With the JVC you'll need proprietary editing software (a few hundred dollars) and HD monitor that you'll be able to pick up at Costco, on sale at Frys, or somewhere for around $1000. You'll also need JVC DVHS deck -- about $700.

In the future you may want to add a blue laser HD DVD recorder or burner. These will be available this year. Sony and Nishia are already mass-producing the HD DVD mechanisms for other companies. Nishia sells these to others for $42 in volume, to use in their products. To be able to get this price the buyer must buy 100,000 mechanisms a month.

The JVC camcorder is currently sold only in Japan and only 1000 units are produced each month. There will be other low cost HD camcorders available this year.

There will be about 7.5 millions HDTV ready sets in US homes by the end of the year. Since HD is the future, I'm sure that your students and their future employers would appreciate that they trained in HD. The JVC camcorders can also shoot in SD.

These are your best bets, in my opinion. All these cameras are easy to operate and have enough manual controls when needed.

There will also be low cost red laser HD DVD products available this year. These are MPEG4 based and the transfer rate is only about 7 Mbps. Toshiba has been pushing these hard to the Hollywood studios and the studios like these better than the higher quality Sony blue laser HD DVD products.

Because of Toshiba strong lobbying efforts and because Sony is likely to obey the Hollywood studio cartel recommendations, because it owns Columbia Pictures, when HD DVDs replace DVDs in rental places, these may be the red laser based ones.

Thank you Toshiba. If you're successful your game, I will not buy your products.

Here is excellent, about 40 pages long info on the red laser HD DVD format:

http://www.screendigest.com/NSMH-5CAAWM/Avignon-112802-final%20-%20Yamada.pdf

Joseph George
Studio HD

Re: HD and SD camceras for high school level classes
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joseph George : CAMERA RECOMMENDATIONS FOR A BASIC VIDEO PRODUCTION CLASS ? SECONDARY EDUCATIONAL LEVEL


With the JVC you'll need proprietary editing software (a few hundred dollars) and HD monitor that you'll be able to pick up at Costco, on sale at Frys, or somewhere for around $1000. You'll also need JVC DVHS deck -- about $700. -->>>


The software is supplied.

Comparison to Varicam and CineAlta
 

The JVC has a transfer rate 19 Mbps at 720/30p. The $63,000 Panasonic Varicam has an effective rate of 50 Mbps at 720/30p. Add a low cost HD zoom lens to the Varicam and you’ll end up with $80K. So the JVC is $4,000 with 19 Mbps stream, the Panasonic is $80K with 50K stream. You’ll pay 20x more for same 720/30p, but at 2.5x the rate. The JVC is definitely a lot better bargain. No comparison.

Here is some more info on the subject.

Although the Varicam does record 100 Mbps at 60p, the effective data rate is only 40 Mbps at 24p and 50Mbps at 30p. 4:2:2 SD systems are 50 Mbps.

The claims that Varicam has less compressed color than CineAlta because it is 4:2:2 and CineAlta is 3:1:1 is incorrect. For example at 30p CineAlta data rate is 185 Mbps and Varicam is 50 Mbps. CineAlta has 3.7x higher transfer rate and 2.25x more pixels. It translates to a simple fact; its chroma (color) is less compressed on CineAlta; its luminance is a lot less compressed.

Is Varicam a better bargain than CineAlta? Let’s assume you are able to negotiate very good discount on both – 50K and 80K. Add $40K for lens(es). It becomes 90K vs. 120K. Add other production expenses. The % difference becomes very small. Does Varicam still look like a bargain?

How important are 3 CCDs on 4:1:1 system. Considering that only 33% of the stream is devoted to chroma, 1 CCD will work fine.

Is 3 CCD system 3x more light sensitive than 1 CCD system? No. The difference in sensitivity is minimal. Why? On a 3 CCD system you need to split the light in 3 beams, each CCD gets only fraction of the light.

Joseph George
Studio HD

Re: Comparison to Varicam and CineAlta
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joseph George : You’ll pay 20x more for same 720/30p, but at 2.5x the rate. The JVC is definitely a lot better bargain. No comparison.>>

No comparison in the image quality also. That "same" 720/30p is apples and oranges.

The XL1 records NTSC 60i, as does the Sony DVW 790WS Digibeta. They too have a radical difference in price, but no-one claims the XL1 is in the same league in terms of picture quality...?

Joseph--Your posts are much appreciated. Not many folks have any experience with HD gear so your perspective is invaluable. Thanks! Ever since taking a 16mm production course in college 28 years ago I've been waiting for HD and having to hold my nose with 3/4" U-matic, then hi-8mm and finally DV video gear. I was afraid everyone was being lulled to sleep with DV. I am so happy that JVC has shocked the world awake again with their H10 camcorder.

A "bad" NAB experience + the HM-DH30000 hunt
 

From NAB:

I read this at the 2-pop.com site:

"And the high-def prosumer HD10. The HD10 presentation was a little puzzling, they didn't have any decent demo footage from the unit at all, just some handheld walking-around-the-strip handycam-looking footage with flat colors. Definitely not impressive, they should have done much better. They did have a "JVC Cafe" camera test area, with the HD10 set up next to a 3-CCD hi-def camera, which was probably a mistake on their part because the side-by-side monitors showed how vast the gap is between "consumer" HD and "real" HD." - journey man

Go to this link for more:

http://www.2-pop.com/ubbthreads/show...5&o=14&fpart=1

Also, they say its a 35 lux camera (!), but didn't indicate if that was in all modes or just HD. I'm assuming just HD. That's terrible!

(Plus, someone claimed to see an XL-2 with 680,000 pixels per ccd and 24P. Does that make it a near 2 megapixel camera, or just a working-in-tandem 680,000 pixel camera?).

My experience trying to buy an HM-DH30000:

Circuit City and Sears didn't have one (except Demo) in any store from Ft. Lauderdale to North Palm Beach, FL. Nor did their warehouses. They claimed they could get it in a week. Best buy was the same thing, except the girl went further by doing a huge check. All stores said it was special order, nope. The Best Buy girl said the last time she was this puzzled (why couldn't she order it at all, and she doubted Sears and CCity could order it either) over a "missing product," they found out the manufacturer had problems and left it on the shelf while repairing the actual sale item. It looks bad when you pull the display model, apparently.

So, in conclusion, I would say we're still a year to a year-and-a-half off from good mini-HD. XL-2 (if HD) or Sony HD by NAB 2004.

heath

This is my theory.

3 New Optical HD Formats
 

Excellent information on the new Toshiba/Warner red laser HD DVD, Toshiba Blue Laser HD DVD and Sony Blu Ray HD DVD. It is a PDF file and it loads slowly. The Blu Ray system seems to be backed by most companies and has a stream of 36 Mbps, about twice as much as the new JVC HD camcorder. All these formats use MPEG2 compression, except the Warner system uses MPEG4 and is ment for prerecorded lower quality HD videos only.

http://www.widescreenreview.com/wsrmmbr/attractions/71pdfs/71yht01.pdf

Specs
 

I know the cam is new, but does anyone have any idea if this so called HD is really HD...In other words, sure it's 1280x720, but is it also 4:2:2 sampling and have greater than DV's 8bit color?

The JVC HM-DH30000
 

Has anyone seen the JVC HM-DH30000 in any stores? I said in another thread it wasn't anywhere in a bunch of different stores in Southeast Florida (didn't check Miami or South Ft. Lauderdale). One girl went so far as to say (at Best Buy) the last time she saw this, the company quietly kept the demo/price-for-sale up, but sent no stock to "fix" some problems. I'm gonna try looking again; you can buy and return (after testing/checking/playing with) it after 30 days, but check each store. I think Circuit City has the most liberal laws as far as that's concerned. I'm hoping to either demo or buy (and return, if it's possible) the camera and test it with the HM-DH30000 and a higher-end HDTV (non-plasma--ours suck at work and non-projection). I promise to write a THOROUGH review of each mode, inside, outside, natural/available lighting and my own extensive lighting. BIG REVIEW! (That's if I can buy and return or demo the camera enough to do those tests.)

heath (new HD reviewer) ;-)
www.mpsdigital.com

ATTENTION EVERYONE (and Steve Mullen) Info on the discontinued Mistubishi HS-HD2000U
 

What does anyone know about the Mistubishi HS-HD2000U? I saw one for under $400 at a Sound Advice. Anyone know if it's good or not? It's older, 2001 or 2002 and may be outdated enough to not be worth it.

Thanks,

Heath McKnight
www.mpsdigital.com

GL2 vs these JVC HD cams?
 

Although they claim 1 chip is enough, are these JVC camcorders really that good compared to Canon or Sony?

Those JVC GR-DV3000U cams were garbage, why should we trust them now?

$2000 retail price yet $800 online. I've never heard one good thing about those.

HD1 has excellent resolution but appears to have washed out colors and has poor light sensitivity; both of these remind of the pre-CCD era cameras with 1 tube pickup.

When it comes to solid-state sensors, 1 CCD is fine in 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 color compression; in less color compressed systems, 3 CCDs are naturally preferred because pixels of all colors land on the same spot.

Unless JVC fixes up the color problem, if Consumer Reports test HD1, they may recommend $500 Digital8 as a better performer.

It seems that with these and other limitations DV3000U and GL2 are overall better cameras.

We may have to wait for Sony to come out with blu-ray HD DVD camcorder to get a quality low cost HD camera. The HD1 may at that time go the way of the DV3000U price wise.

HD1 and HD10 are basically the same cameras. If JVC fixes up the HD1 color problem, they'll also fix it on HD1, if they are capable of doing so any time soon since it appears that new encoder/decoder chips may be needed and JVC has to rely on other companies in this era.

I think that with consumer cams, and 1 chip pro cams, JVC has shot themselves in the foot for the last 4 years. I say this because year after year, the other major cam companies usually have some good models, and at a cheaper price. I firmly believe JVC has when whistling a different tune for some time. But they are not alone. This year's Canon 1 chip lineup is dismal. I don't understand why JVC hasn't come out with a better 1 chip cam yet. Maybe this will be the one (or 2), I don't know. We'll have to wait and see what develops. I know JVC can build better cams. My older DVL9500 cams are excellent 1 chip cams. My opinion.

Speaking of 3d hd... would the Nu-View SX-2000 Stereoscopic 3-D Camcorder Adapter Kit work with the GR-HD1U / JY-HD10U? Maybe only in certain modes...?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh6.sph/...NUSX2000___REG

IMHO: I think that that thing, as far as I remember, and as these things normally work, is made to work with interlaced systems and each eye sees diifferent fields of a frame. So it most likely would not work in the 30p mode, or it would give kind of stroboscopic effect, which may be interesting. 60i shoul be OK and 60p, I don't know. Maybe you could check with the manufacturer and let us all know. The mirror(s) it is probably using should be of good enough quality for the 60p mode; for HD, who knows?.

New HD1 Review by Forbes
 

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/free_forbes/2003/0526/156.html

There is an error in the review. With letterboxing of the viewfinder and the LCD you do not lose 20% but 25% resolution. They claim that the viewfinder is totally useless.