Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Does the AX100 have timecode?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Video sensor size measurement originates from the first tube cameras where the size designation would have related to the outside diameter of the glass tube. The area of the face of the tube used to create the actual image would have been much smaller, typically about 2/3rds of the tube diameter, so a 1" tube would give a 2/3" diameter active area, within which you would have a 4:3 frame with a 16mm diagonal.

An old 2/3" Tube camera would have had a 4:3 active area of about 8.8mm x 6.6mm giving an 11mm diagonal. This 4:3 11mm diagonal is the size now used to denote a modern 2/3" sensor. A 1/2" sensor has a 8mm diagonal and a 1" sensor a 16mm diagonal.

Yes, it's confusing, but the same 2/3" lenses as designed for tube cameras in the 1950's can still be used today on a modern 2/3" video camera and will give the same field of view today as they did back then. So the sizes have stuck, even though they have little relationship with the physical size of a modern sensor. Hence the term, 1" Type, as it is an active area that would be the equivalent to the active area of an old 1" diameter Vidicon/Saticon/Plumbicon Tube from the 1950's.

For comparison:

1/3" = 6mm diag.
1/2" = 8mm
2/3" = 11mm
1" = 16mm
4/3" = 22mm

A camera with a Super35mm sensor would be the equivalent of approx 35-40mm
APS-C would be approx 30mm

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If I understand fine, the best way is that I have to add a slight blur to those flickering clips on the timeline. As I have many of flickering clips I'd like to know if even you get some flickering clips.

Edit: I am very worried. I did some tests with both the filter, blur and ati-flicker. Hard blur filter and Anti-flicker 100% filter, both filters improve very slightly the flickering but they don't eliminate it at all. And after it the image deteriorates a lot.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Could you maybe shoot a 5 to 10 second clip which shows the flickering you are talking about and then make that file available for download (the clip straight from the camera card without any conversion) so some of us could have a look? I use Edius 7 as well so we might be able to compare settings to see what is causing the issue.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ok, these are my clips:
the first one is Original 4K clip and the second one is an Exported HD clip with flickering.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...04K%20clip.MP4
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...flickering.mp4
I have many clips with flickering. If you watch it with the monitor of the PC you will see a good clip. You should watch it on a big TV with external player.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100E
 

I shot I a walk around here (Aspendale, Melbourne, AU) yesterday in 4K at 25fps and 50 shutter speed and Edius showed it all as a series of flickers on grass, trees etc, (even in a 4K project), so I am very interested in this thread. Unfortunately I am going away for a few days and can't test further until later next week, but I will shoot some more of the "scenery' at Surfers Paradise while I'm away to test with!

Vaughan

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

When I watch Adriano's clips on my Retina laptop display or a 4K monitor I do not see any flickering in the original clip, but on the HD clip I do see some very minor aliasing issues on the middle distance trees on the right hand side of the image and some compression blocking on the upper left of the image (probably due to aliasing in the conversion process).

I don't really see any particularly bad or noticeable flicker, certainly nothing that jumps out at me.

Points to consider are:

When down converting from UHD to HD (including viewing footage on an HD display when editing a 4K project) you do need to use a scaling process that will perform good quality pixel blending, image re-sampling or another form of anti-aliasing. A straight re-size will result in aliasing which can appear as either flicker, moire or a combination of both.

After re-sizing the image will be incredibly sharp compared to what most HD cameras or HD broadcast deliver. In particular it will have very high contrast in the finest of details. A conventional HD camera will not (or at least should not) have this due to the cameras HD Low Pass Filter which reduces contrast in fine details to prevent flicker and aliasing.

TV sets add detail correction and sharpening to compensate for this and to make the pictures look sharper. Computer monitors typically do not.

Feed a super sharp, high contrast image to a TV and it will enhance and further sharpen the already super sharp image. This can often lead to flicker, jagged edges, flashing highlights and other nasty looking side effects, especially if the down converted footage has not be anti-aliased.

Things to try: Find a better scaling process for your down conversion that includes anti-aliasing. Turn down or turn off the image sharpening on the TV.

We had all of these same "issues" when people used HD cameras to shoot SD and didn't have HD TV's. Many blamed the cameras when really the problem lay elsewhere.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hey Vaughan which website did you purchase through? I was thinking of buying from China but was a little suspect.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I use Edius 7 for video editing. On the timeline I put 4K clips and the Edius preset is:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ttings%202.jpg
I think Edius is configured fine.
I like to tell you my TV works very fine with another camera Sony AX2000 (HD files). I've ever had seen that flickering problem. I can assure you that it is very obvious even after lowering the sharpening of the image on TV options.
How can I solve my workflow? Some help please?
If I cannot solve my flickering problems I will have to sell my AX100. What a pity!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Adriano, I checked your clips and there is really very little wrong with them. You have said yourself that the footage looks fine on a computer monitor, so there is probably nothing wrong with the footage or the camera. If the footage itself contained the flicker you would see this on every monitor. The fact that you only see the issue on your TV points to the TV being a significant part of the issue.

The AX100's internal UHD to HD down scale includes an anti-aliase filter.

I'm sorry but I don't use Edius so I cant recommend a specific workflow for Edius. But normally you should be working in a 4K project and 4K timeline and doing the down scale at the end rather than working with the 4K clips in an HD timeline. Simply dropping 4K clips into an HD timeline is often far from ideal.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Did you try playing the camera's footage directly to your TV as a couple of us have suggested? This is without question your starting point. If you don't see a virtually perfect down-scaled 1080p image that way, then something else is wrong.

If your image is fine from the camera to the TV, then you can move on to your editing system.

As we have mentioned, the fault is not with the camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm waiting for the sun to make this test. Flickering shows with sun only. I have formatted my SD and I cannot do it. May be can I import those original 4K files from hard drive into the SD again?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

My guess is it's a monitoring issue, I see serious line twitter watching Adriano's mp4's on my Panasonic editing HDTV (not 4K).

This is while playing from Edius 7 timeline via HDMI from my GV Storm 3G hardware. Unfortunately this HDTV like many others does not have an actual 25P mode, it's only 50i, primarily for broadcast transmissions. Of course the preview on my computer screen doesn't show line twitter since most computer displays are 30P progressive but my HDTV has to deinterlace causing the line twitter on the sharp detail in the video I see here.

To prove this I placed both mp4 files in an Edius 23.98p project.

My BM decklink card comes in handy here, since it does true progressive 23.98 output and my HDTV does have this mode so no deinterlacing is attempted. I conformed the clips in the bin from 25p to 23.98 and dropped them on the timeline, sure enough they then previewed just fine on my HDTV.

I am used to this issue since for a while I have filmed with an EX1R in 25P but due to this line twitter while monitoring have switched to 24p and now 50P on latest cameras.

Of course a 4K tv will surely have a true 25p mode? I do hope so!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Just apply an extremely small amount of vertical Gaussian blur before rendering to HD. I do it all the time when rendering my HD source for DVD delivery; I use Vegas Pro and some 0.001 is just enough (to give an idea of what I mean by "extremely small amount" :-))

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I have just used an hard blur but I get the same problem. I am angry because I bought a 4K camera and I can use it recording in HD only.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Again, don't be angry at the camera. I get 4K>HD playback directly from my camera to my HDTV that far exceeds any HD camera I've ever owned or seen.

So while producing superior HD playback on my HDTV today, those same 4K clips can be archived for true 4K playback whenever I get a UHD TV.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Can you explain better please? Do you watch only the clips or all Edius edited video directly from your camera to your HDTV?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Adriano -

TO be quite blunt, getting mad at the CAMERA is ridiculous!

I do understand as I spent most of yesterday cussing out my new 4K computer, and most of the last week fighting with settings, some bad RAM, and generally figuring out how to get a functional "lo-budget" 4K capable computer up and running...

I'm hoping I figured out what was causing a random crash... found a sketchy connector in the wee hours that may have been the problem. Fingers crossed, but what I'm trying to say is that while getting mad is a natural reaction, I'm not going crazy thinking I'll just turn back the clock (this new setup is also very nice for HD, where my old core was "passable"...). My projects will still be there when I sort out the stability issues... Your clips will still be there when you figure out where the glitch is!!

You have bought a camera on the "bleeding edge" - it's like having a fast car, you may have to sort out the quirks and re-learn what you THINK you know! I don't doubt you are having some playback issues, but as is all too common, it's likely being introduced AFTER you take the clips out of the camera, presuming you didn't get a bad camera, but from what you say clips look fine BEFORE you process them.



I finally have my "beast" sitting here next to my desktop, waiting for me to get to it to do some test shots... dang skittery computer!

A few "first impressions":

There is a nice metal clip for a lanyard, right where it should be, the doors on this thing are a work of artful engineering, not worrying about their durability. The MiShoe is definitely going to require a cold shoe adapter... I'll probably build a 3 shoe one like in my post to your "shoe issues".that can be re-configured to a single as needed.

Controls are going to take a little bit to learn, but things seem to be "mostly" well placed... the camera is "small" but certainly significantly larger than a "typical" Handycam of the last few years - my old HC1 grew up and took some steroids or something! If one was worried about shooting with a "small camera", this one should reduce that concern quite a bit!

AVM1 and RMAV2 work perfectly (A/V LANC remote and the A/V - MULTI adapter) - now to figure out why they don't work with RX Cybershots, while the VPR1 MULTI controller DOES!?!?!?

A couple oddities - why did Sony use a nice "eye sensor" to just turn the VF on and off when the LCD is closed...why not use normal convention and switch between LCD and VF when you move up to the eyepiece - like on still cameras... or have a menu option to turn on BOTH, like the old FX7 - the eye sensor to turn the VF on and off would work great with something like that! SOMETIMES you want or need a quick check through the VF, but don't need the hassle of pulling it out to activate it, or fiddling with the LCD. The zoom rocker placement seems like it's slightly too far forward, but not a big deal, zoom speeds are slow and slower (IMO), but usable. The focus magnifier button is not TOO bad to reach, my right pinky can reach it fine, or doing a still camera style grip, the left hand can reach it.

I saw a "my button" menu item - got to figure out what THAT does - is it onscreen touch buttons, like prior Sonys... I don't see a "hard button" offhand, but the feature looks promising!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

And FWIW, a little "feedback" from re-watching some of the previously posted 4K clips on a 4K system... my general impression is that you see a few more tiny "issues" with all the added detail than you do watching a 4K clip downrezzed to HD.... overall detail levels are of course much higher, so net results are "better".

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks very much for that useful bit of info - not only did learn something, but it makes sense in your clear explanation.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

No, I watch my 4K projects on my 4K computer monitor and I create HD versions of those same projects for viewing on my HDTV.

As an example, I just created a 4K project in Cyberlink Power Director. This is a program I've been using for 4K just recently since I find it renders a visually transparent 4K project a bit better than Edius 7. By that I mean I see no visual loss between the original 4K clips and the finished rendered 4K project when viewed on my 28" 4K computer monitor. With Edius I was seeing a bit of detail blurring with motion. I found this surprising, but I did several tests and the results were always the same.

Even though Cyberlink is a relatively inexpensive program, it does an excellent job and at least in 4K, somewhat better than the far more expensive Edius.

But to your point, I took this 4K project and had Cyberlink render an HD project for viewing on my HDTV. I just watched it and it looks so good, I don't want to show it to my wife for fear she'll say we don't need a large screen UHD TV. It's that good.

Just a note on this Adriano, you can't put a finished project back on the SD card since the camera won't recognize it. I've never been able to do that with any camera I've owned that records to a card. It seems they all have their proprietary file structure that seems impossible to recreate.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Timoecode? Does it have one?
Or does the counter reset every time you stop-start roll?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave, my 4k Edius project settings is good to export to HD. I'm sure about it!! I have posted my Edius config. by screen shots some times on two newsgroups and Edius users told me my Edius config. is good.
My HDTV is giving flickering problems. It is an old HDTV (I spent much money to buy it, around 4.500 euros). My TV cannot support 25p and it is giving me problems.

Only to inform you. Today I have shot some XVAC S HD files with AX100 and I have edited them with Edius. I have exported to H.264/mp4 and I have watched an incredible HD quality of the video, above my expectations. What I don't like: I bought AX100 for 2000 euros and I have to shot in HD. In short time I will sell it and I will buy a 4K 50p camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I see no indication of time code in the manual maybe Ken can answer but if it is like my FDR-AX1 the counter starts and stops each time. C0001 etc. I do have a data code button etc on the FDR-AX1 which does not work either until the firmware update some time this summer ( !!!! ) maybe there will be an update to time code then as the AS100V with XAVC-S does have timecode as does the PMW-Z100 with XAVC.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

And still no indication you have tried to watch directly from the camera to the TV to see where the problem resides. I think you need a new HDTV more than a new camera, but nobody can convince you otherwise.

You'll never be happy and will always be convinced it's the camera, so yes, you should sell the camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Correct Ron. No time code and there is a reset with each stop and start as a new clip is generated. I don't think I've seen a different behavior since the days of tape.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cameras like my NX5U and NX30 have full timecode that can be set to operate like tape or to be free run so that for a multicam shoot it will be easier to edit afterwards even if the cameras are started and stopped at different time. In fact if you want them to start at zero each time they have to be reset.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Anybody got a 4K resolution chart? If so, can anybody get an AX100 on it?

I'd love to see just how many lines it resolves.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cliff, I seem to recall that Slashcam tested it and found it was close to the limits of 4K (actually UHD if we want to get technical). It had the highest resolution of any 4K camera they had yet tested...including the GH4.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

When I saw your first post I knew exactly what you were seeing as I first called it flicker/twitter. The problem with both names is that interlace video has "line flicker/twitter" and so for technical folks these names would not be right. So, I now call it "shimmer."

I watched your clips and you are absolutely correct, the shimmer is painful to watch. The tree leaves explode with shimmer. Here's a link to shimmer shot in the USA:


I saw it even on Sony's first demo videos which is why I immediately looked to see if the AX100 had a Sharpness control. (This is not the first Sony to have this problem--the V1 in Europe had it and Sony's recommendation was to dial down Sharpness.)

Shimmer has nothing to do with EDIUS as I use FCP X. This is BS being aimed at you so YOU feel you have done something wrong. One friend who looked at AX100 video at his house said, "Even Heller Keller could see the artifacts."

I tried shooting HD, but even if you shoot HD it will still have some shimmer.

More BS is to "connect the camera to the TV." In real life folks edit their video. And, they distribute via the internet to a wide variety of displays. (My family is scattered around the world.) Because, there is no way to force folks to use your monitor, some viewers may be lucky and see no shimmer, most will. This is very different than claiming that the AX100 looks fine on their TV or computer monitor! Thus, unless a camera can work the way real people work, it's a useless camera for them. Even worse--even if you do burn a 4K thumbdrive and watch on a 4K TV--the shimmer still shows-up. I tried this.

Now it's not that Sony can't build a good 4K camera. Watch videos from their $5000 AX1 and there's little or no shimmer. What's the difference between the cameras? Go to the German Slashcam site and read the reviews of the AX100 and AX1. Look at the frequency response (MFT) curves. The AX100 curve falls of early while the AX1 falls of much later.

Test : 4K, die zweite... Sony FDR-AX100: Sonstiges, in aller Kürze / Aus dem Messlabor

Test : Sony FDR-AX1 Messergebnisse: Einleitung / Schärfe/Auflösung

Which is better? Read the Blackmagic Pocket Camera review and look at it's HD curve and read the comments, which say it's the best curve they have ever measured. It falls off very very gently. "This is by far the smoothest Luminanzverlauf, we have ever measured in our editorial office."

Test : Blackmagic Pocket Camera - Erster Mess-Test: Einleitung

This also has zero shimmer:
So what is the big bump in the AX100's curve? Sony has dialed Sharpness up to near maximum. Which is why everyone comments that the image looks so SHARP. Unfortunately, professional cameras like the AX1 have DETAIL not SHARPNESS. Sony also dials up Contrast which we all know makes any image look sharper. The German site clearly says the AX100 image is "over sharpened."

"Leider tritt auch eine nicht abstellbare deutliche Nachschärfung zu Tage, ohne die das Sony-Bild deutlich cinematischer ausfallen würde" >> "Unfortunately occurs, a non-suppressible significant sharpening days, without the Sony picture would be significantly cinematic. >> Unfortunately, there is significant sharpening that can't be reduced, which if it could be, the Sony picture would be significantly cinematic.

They also say, "But what must not be, can not be with Sony. After all, this is a consumer device for 2,000 euros. And probably why Sony bangs still far too strong for our taste sharpening on the image produces the distinct halos around dark contours. And, this is typical for Sony consumer camcorder, unfortunately, can not be deactivated ..."

Folks are not seeing a real 4K image with fine detail from the AX100 -- they are seeing an "edge enhanced" better than HD image that fools consumers into thinking this is what 4K really looks like. Obviously, it has fooled a whole bunch of people. But, note the reviews at Slashcam that directly say they like the 4K GH4 better. "GH4 4K picture is almost perfect in HD Downskaling."

Several posters have already guessed that sharpness is the problem when they say to apply a filter, but I tried that and as you found, the result looks horrible. In my review, I explain all this in greater detail.

One last point, you'll notice the shimmer only when the camera is panning or zooming. The shimmer is dynamic aliasing. It will not show-up when a static test of resolution and aliasing is done. That's why Slashcam said the AX100 was free from aliasing. In the USA many test by slowly moving the camera back and forth because the measure is realistic since after all most video has motion.

Your impulse to sell it while it's in short supply is a good one. As soon as my review for DV magazine was finished, I sent the AX100 back to Sony. Np point in owning any camera that doesn't work in the way you need it to -- no matter what others say.

Good luck, Adriano.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

OK, I looked at your video (Steve) on my new computer... I see some "pulsing" in the one bush as you zoom, at 4k (on a 4K 30hz screen), but not so much at 1080... still there, but not as bad... then on my 1080 60hz auxiliary screen, barely any when playing 4k, and only a tiny little bit for the 1080... certainly I only noticed it because I was concentrating on LOOKING for the flaw (I believe this would be akin to looking at Cindy Crawford and ONLY seeing a mole, but we are being picky).

I also fiddled with the YouTube speed controls, and that affected the severity of the "pulsing".

I'm not entirely convinced the problem is due to over sharpening so much as this is the result of 30 progressive frames - each time I paused, I got a nice sharp crisp image, like a still.

Let's step back a bit and consider... 30p was the ONE reservation going back to the announcement of this camera. The more I look at samples on the 4K system I just built (integrated intel graphics, on a cheap seiki 39" TV being used as a monitor), the more I see a bit of an issue with 30p. The Seiki is a 30Hz refresh, and it will also display at 24Hz - 24 is noticeably "jerky", and there is a degree of "shimmer" at 30... scrolling has a funny "motion" about it, and I have to do some more testing with video, though generally it has looked quite GOOD. I now know what I should be looking for in re 30p temporal distortion...

SO, does this make the AX100 a horrible camera? Not IMO, it makes it a camera with some potential limitations when shooting certain types of movement. It also has the XAVC S 60p 60Mbps 1080, which shouldn't have the same temporal limitations, easy enough to switch as required, I expect to use that mode quite a bit (OK, so maybe I'm making an argument for the CX900...).

I think what we are seeing is a limitation of an early implementation of "4K", the detail is there, but because that detail is so "detailed", any movement at only 30 frames per second becomes problematic. SO, perhaps 4K will need to wait for 60p to be really "great", and for now high bitrate 1080p is a "better" choice (and the AX100 has it... I would have been looking at it for that feature alone).


This raises the question of how to best reduce the "shimmer" or "pulsing" or "stutter" resulting from temporal/motion without messing up the "detail" - not sure yet what, if any, the answer is to that question...

I've been fighting to stabilize this new build for over a week before I even contemplate edit/render... I'm anticipating another set of challenges when reaching that hurdle... but after a week of tweaking, bug hunting (think I squashed the last one in the wee hours this AM), and adjusting to get a 4K system running on a "lo budget", I'm not TOO worried (yet!).

I know Ken mentioned adjusting his display to smooth things out (ain't gonna happen on my "cheap" monitor/TV, it is what it is!). But if I can make it look "good" on a cheap TV, I'm hoping for REALLY good 1080p in the end, and 4K for a few things, and I think the AX100 will deliver that, but I'm realistic that there will be limitations...

On another "front", I strolled through the local Costco, and they had exactly ONE 4K TV in 4-5 rows of 1080 HDTVs... yeah, ONE... so it may be a while before 4K becomes "standard" enough to be a worry! I think Best Buy has a little better selection (think I saw TWO last time at the small footprint local store), but still, 4K won't be "mainstream" THIS year....

Life on the bleeding edge has it's moments, this looks like one of them...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I forgot to mention that on that Costco excursion, in the few brief moments I was watching, I saw one clip with a "host" in a plaid shirt... do ya think that I saw a "few" artifacts??? Yep, that shirt had a life all it's own... and I'm sure the clip was shot with something a LOT more expensive than the AX100, no doubt edited on a expensive system and a big budget...

I see plenty of artifacts and noisy video on my HD FiOS feed - it is the RARE show that really looks "good" with consistency - watching the new "Late Night", and there's some "pulsing" in the brightness... I'm sure it's shot with state of the art gear in a brand new studio... and it looks QUITE GOOD, much better than most "HD" that seems to come in, but it's not without flaws should someone choose to be "picky"! And this is just the stuff that's supposed to be "HD".

There is an element of expectations at work here. We tend to see flaws after we notice them or someone points them out... I call this the phenomenon of "that which once seen cannot be "unseen". But if this means going through life with an "empty glass", I'll pass on that, thanks. Tech has limits and flaws, you either accept that or you don't, and wait in hopes of finding "perfect"... which may or may not ever come along...

You can enjoy (or at least make the best of) the trip or complain that you're not at your destination...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Already answered, no TC on this camera but I've gone a step further and made some text files using MediaInfo program, which analyzes video files and lists all sorts of properties. The XF305 has TC, so it's included here to show how MediaInfo identifies that in the video file info. I've also included some files from video files which were taken from my BMD Shuttle 2 when it was connected to the XF305. So, you can compare the data listed from the FDR-AX100 and see there's no mention of TC.

Hope this is helpful.

Mark

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

While I'm at it, may as well include file data from a few other cameras I have...

Interestingly, the JVC GC-P100B does output on the HDMI during record, but I see no indications of TC from it.

Mark

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I don't have have a 30Hz monitor so I can't comment on 30Hz. (One reason I shoot at 24p.) Computers and my HDTV are 60Hz. (It won't go faster because I don't want film to look like video.) I don't know what the Best Buy UHDTV was running at, as there was no way they were going to let me turn of all the features

What you find matches my experience. On a computer the pulsing is the worst -- from a 4K 24p YouTube source. A little less on my HDTV fed via HDMI -- from a 4K 24p YouTube source. When the HDTV is fed by AppleTV which I suspect is getting a 720p24 stream, it's not bad at all. Other people who see artifacts have big Apple monitors.

The problem is that I can't predict what anyone will see when they watch. I have no way to QC my video. And, let's suppose it suddenly shows up on a 4K TV I buy in a few years? I'm screwed because I'll have edited movies!

How bad is it? Folks in their 40's said it was terrible. Someone way over 80 saw nothing until I described it. She then said I can't "un-see it!!!" Same with the Morie on many of the buildings in the NYC video. She never saw it. But, once she saw it ONCE, she could see it whenever it appeared.

And you are correct -- it appears on live HD TV because they have no control over talent. But, I've never seen it on a primetime network show or on HBO films. And, if you watch HD shot on the BMPCC you rarely see it -- unless someone has over-sharpened the RAW video. In other words, when video is shot with pro cameras it is absent. I didn't see it from the AX1.

The comments made on Slashcom point to "over-sharpening." (In general, compression errors show-up as a loss of detail on motion. But, if they are from low compression -- that doesn't really help you.) Because each picture shows an alias in a different locations you see them only when there is motion--which why speed affects what what you see.

"This raises the question of how to best reduce the "shimmer" or "pulsing" or "stutter" resulting from temporal/motion without messing up the "detail" -- not sure yet what, if any, the answer is to that question..."

Those who are expecting my review to be really negative may surprised that after noting what I saw, I spell-out how to shoot to never have artifacts. It can be done as one of my posted videos show no artifacts.

But ultimately I realized that I didn't need to buy the first 4K camera. As you said, there is a lot to sort out. So why spend $2000 now? Since the 2014 Sony's coming out this month will support 60p, I suspect we will soon see a 60p camcorder. (Adriano was very worried about thist.)

The other issue you are dealing with -- what computer is needed. I'm not switching from a MacBook's. In a year the GPU and HDMI port issues will be sorted out. (I did know 10.9.3 would be needed. But, what else don't I know.) So I'm going to hang in with HD for another year. I think CES 2015 will have many exciting 4K products -- and many will be cheaper.

"Life on the bleeding edge has it's moments, this looks like one of them..." You are so right! I'm just not willing to bleed having had the first DV and then the first HDV camcorders. And, my sense was that Adriano was very worried because in most parts the world there is NO trial period. If he is not to lose a lot of money, he needs to sell quickly. There will always be another 4K camcorder -- maybe at IBC in September.

Bottom-line, if someone doesn't see anything with their setup they have nothing to worry about. Those who see artifacts, it is possible to shoot to avoid them. As long as it works for you.

Dave, I wish you luck with your PC. I've built one and I loved doing it -- at least until it didn't boot on first power-up.

TIP: Hammacher Schlemmer is selling the AX1 for $5000. They offer a 1 YEAR trial.

PS: Your 4K 30Hz monitor must show each frame twice or you would get sick. Just like watching a Utube 30fps stream on a computer at 60Hz. Can you tell your graphics card to send 30Hz? I'm not sure on a Mac that I can set 30Hz.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I have noticed this "twitter" affect too. I have seen it on BOTH the AX100 and the GH4.

It seems to be most noticeable on the very highest frequency details. (tiny and dense bush leaves are a perfect culprit)

I'm not sure, but I suspect its a very very fine granular moire combined with a fast shutter speed.

At 30p frame rate with a slow shutter of 1/30 or 1/60, high frequency details is "smudged" very VERY quickly. Imagine a 4k resolution chart being shot at a 1/30 shutter speed....even the smallest and most insignificant movement will blur the 1000+ line mark and get worse as it goes up the scale. 1500 lines on a chart at 1/60 shutter will smudge extremely fast with even the smallest movement. The 250 line mark on the scale/chart can survive the same slight movement at 1/60 shutter because those lines and much further apart.

So, raising the shutter speed can decrease the blur and sharpen the lines further and further up the scale with that same tiny motion amount.

So this is where that high frequency aliasing appears to come from? It's just my best guess. I would also suspect that all 4k cameras at fast shutter speeds will display this. (As i said, I saw that GH4 doing the exact same thing.)

To sum it up: There is a tight relationship between "motion", "resolution" and "shutter speed". They all have a big affect on each other. A drastic resolution increase also forces significant affects on the other two.

But what the heck do I know? Hahaa...I'm just spit ballin' here! ;-)

CT
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm sorry guys, much ado about nothing. As usual, Steve in on his endless mission to find something, anything, wrong with the AX100. I've seen tons of AX100 videos and rarely have I seen anyone commenting, let alone so bothered by artifacts.

The line twitter, pulsing, dancing, shimmering, whatever my buddy Steve would like to call it, is something I've seen on virtually EVERY camera that shoots some highly detailed subject with the sun hitting it just right. I've seen it on MEGABUCK professional cameras, I've seen it on live broadcasts as Dave has mentioned and I've seen it on documentaries. So Steve has discovered that a $2,000 4K camera that does so many things so well, can also manifest this issue under certain circumstances? Big whoop!

Then to call my suggestion to Adriano, that he hook up his camera to his HDTV for the purpose of determining if he sees the same kind or intensity of artifacts, 'BS', is not only insulting but demonstrates a huge lack of understanding on Steve's part in tracing down problems. Did I suggest to Adriano that he watch his footage day in and day out in this manner? NO. Did I suggest he do this a good first step in determining where his problems might lie? YES. Steve is apparently not well versed in the scientific method.

Can editing introduce artifacts? YOU BETCHA! For anyone to suggest otherwise, is again very naïve. Wasn't it Steve that was all over the AX100 a while ago for a different artifact that he later found out was his error in editing?

Can YouTube or any online streaming service introduce artifacts? YOU BETCHA! And yet there are still people blaming cameras for artifacts that are clearly being introduced by the streaming service. Hell, I've posted videos on both YouTube and Vimeo and it kills me to see not only the artifacts that can be introduced, but the general degradation in quality. The difference couldn't be clearer when you have the original file at your disposal. But to blame the issues on the camera? C'mon, pure folly.

Does this mean the AX100 is devoid of artifacts? Of course not. But golly gee, let's put things in perspective. ALL cameras have artifacts and yes, despite what Steve said, I've clearly seen them on original, unedited BMCC files. ALL cameras have artifacts of one kind or another. To then say that a camera that costs 2X or 3X the price of an AX100 has less of a given artifact (IF true), so what? Is anyone naïve enough to expect the same features and quality from the AX100 as cameras that costs double, triple or more of that of an AX100? What's amazing is that the AX100 can do better in many respects than even those cameras! The AX100 does produce a picture with more detail than a BMC 4K camera, GH4 or an AX1. That is nothing short of amazing.

As for avoiding artifacts, I don't need to read a book to know how to avoid them and I don't need to see issues overemphasized for the purpose of selling a book. I think most people here can figure it out in a very short period of time.

As for Slashcam, they had stated (despite Steve's repeated misinterpretation of their tests), the AX100 was the most resolute 4K camera they had yet tested...including the GH4.

So rather than spend one's life searching endlessly for issues that can be found in any camera, here's a novel idea, shoot real video, make real projects and enjoy what you shoot. But if you insist on looking for artifacts, they can be found on any camera at any price.

Let's make something clear here and it's very important and flies in the face of Mr. Mullen's 'logic'. When you shoot and edit a video, if it looks perfect, or nearly so, on a calibrated monitor at the correct frame rates (24p, no thank you, talk about issues!) & resolution, then that video is indeed fine. If someone chooses to watch it on a lousy monitor, in a different country at a different frame rate or on an Ipad, a cellphone or whatever, whose fault is it that the video now deviates from what we know it should look like? There are endless possibilities that are introduced at the final end point of the chain and there is little that can be done. If someone watches on a poorly calibrated monitor at a default temperature of 10,000K, is it the editor's fault or the monitor's fault that it looks too blue? But to blame this on the camera? C'mon.

I just shot this AX100, 4K video, a few days ago. This was not another series of test videos to try to induce issues, I've long since stopped with 'test videos'. This was a video that simply documented a visit we made to a location that was, IMO, worth shooting. It was not meant to show artifacts nor was it mean to HIDE artifacts. It was simply a real video of real subjects. Novel idea, huh? With that said, and my nose pressed up against a 28" Samsung 4K monitor, I see zero artifacts...and this is an edited video. From my point of view, the biggest flaw in this video was my fault. We were so surprised to see this bald eagle, I apparently paid no attention to the zebras on the eagle's head. Thus the eagle's head is over-exposed. I wanted to knock my head through the wall when I saw that. Now THAT'S an issue, not some minor twinkling in a bush and that was purely my error.

I'm sorry guys, shoot REAL video of REAL subjects with the AX100 and you'll find out how good it really is. But hey, if you're determined to look for some kind of artifacts, you might actually find them as you would with any camera. If that's what you do, may I suggest painting? ;)

I encourage anyone that thinks this camera is so laden with artifacts to download the original file (don't rely on Vimeo playback that might introduce its own artifacts). I've shown this video to 4 different people and the only remarks I've gotten were 'wow', not 'look at the twittering of that bush in the distance'. The original 4K video is available if you log in.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Ken -

Considering the "average" person NEVER calibrates their TV/monitor... it's crazy to expect the "end user experience" to be anything BUT "highly variable"! I've got 3 HDTV's and they all look a "little" different, even after "attempted" calibration... each brand put their own "look" into the recipe!!

I'm still not convinced I've got this Seiki dialed in either, I had to make MASSIVE changes to the factory settings to get "close". Though VIDEO looks excellent (maybe a tad dark, but really good)... stills and SOME websites have some truly strange "issues"!

AT most, I think that the potential for certain scenes to "maybe" have more potential for artifacts is "handy" to be aware of, but it's not a deal breaker, especially on a camera with a 1080 60Mbps 60p "option" at your fingertips! It's sort of like when you have a bright white "spot" on a dark background <wink> - you might have to adjust things a bit!

And when it comes to all the OTHER places in the "workflow" and display chain where things can go "off the rails", it's absolutely crazy to point at the "new kid" (camera) and say it's the one that's "defective"!

As you point out, one must have good "scientific methodology" and troubleshooting skills if one is to be on the bleeding edge, tech wise. We are fortunate that no wings fall off and nobody dies, but that doesn't mean that things always run smoothly and work as expected! Sometimes you have to "work at it".


@Steve -
As for the new computer build... it did NOT boot on the first try (bad RAM, one module out of 4, horrigble sinking feeling included), it's had some stability issues (now traced to a bad connector in the power supply cabling), 30p/Hz is what the Intel integrated graphics output, PERIOD (see a pattern with 4K?), I suppose there are dedicated cards that would do 60p/Hz for a price... but not on the "budget plan"! The Seiki TV ALSO will only produce 30p/Hz for 4K (pattern again...), and while it "should" induce headaches I suppose, it is wonderfully sharp and quite easy on my eyes for a change!

From my price shopping, I'm guessing if I wanted to spend 5-10x the budget of my ENTIRE upgrade for a monitor, I might have a 60p "monitor" option... but I wanted to not break the bank! I have a "little" 21" HD Samsung monitor alongside for reasons of a driver "issue" (without multiple monitors the driver keeps reverting to 29Hz instead of 30, which sits there blinking until manually adjusted between "blinks"), and it looks like it will be handy for displaying 1080/60p video as a comparison.

Philosophically, I expect "cheap" (relatively) gear to do a passable job, maybe not as good as "toys" that cost far more, but "good enough". I'm not seeing the "failure" of the AX100 in that respect. It is what it is, and much like the RX10, I expect it to do what I ask of it quite well. I got a good price on mine, and will sell a couple other cameras to offset, as "pan and scan" should allow it to replace at least 2 cameras. The RX10 caused a similar clean out of the equipment locker...


I don't know which "2014" Sony cams you're talking about, EVERY higher end Sony (Handycam AND Cybershot) I've got and have had, for the past 3 years or so, has shot 1080 60p, at 28Mbps.... The just announced RX100Mk3 is adding XAVC S @60Mbps (same as the CX900/AX100). The AX100 IS a 2014 camera... and I don't think based on what's released and rumoured that there are that many more "consumer priced" cameras coming down the pipe (much as I hope for an RX10Mk2 with 4K...).

Next year, I expect (depending on how the AX100 does), we'll see more 4K capture devices, if for no other reason than they HAVE to keep up with cell phone/tablet images!!

2015 and on, I suppose "60p" 4K will be the "buzz", but is there ANY stuff (camera/computer editing systems/TV's) out there RIGHT NOW at "consumer" prices that's 60p/4K??? <crickets>

SO, that's what makes the AX100 "unique", warts (it any) and all. You want to shoot 4K on a BUDGET, this (and maybe the GH4 if you've got investment in the lenses/system already) is THE GAME... or you can sit on the sidelines waiting for when we are talking about being able to buy a 4K60p camera for $500 and a 55" 4K60P TV for $500, that's fine too... you'll be sitting waiting a while!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It could be shutter speed with some folks, but I shoot at 24p at 1/48th-1/50th. Exactly correct.

You may see it with the GH4 on some samples because it has a Sharpness control and so you never know what it has been set at. Actually, you can see it on HD content when it's been over-sharpened or rescaled without first being passed through an anti-aliasing filter.

It really doesn't matter if one calls it moire, because moire is simply a specific type of aliasing that occurs on closely spaced horizontal (typically) spaced lines.

But, this is well understood and there is no reason for me to explain it here.

What's good is that this thread has now switched from "I see nothing senior, nada" to "I see it but it doesn't matter to me." For some it may be fine to buy and use a 4K camera that can create aliasing even though other 4K cameras do not -- and this issue is not a problem with the HD cameras we own.

But, there are those of us who will not buy a camera that can create artifacts when others view their video. Hell, I won't watch my video with aliasing. We won't because there is no need to! There are other 4K cameras that have an industry wide professional recognition and there will be many more lower-cost consumer cameras! What's the rush to 4K when there are truly great HD cameras at half the price?

But that's your choice--at least everyone now knows what their choice involves. Good luck. Over and out.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

This thing that I have seen in the raw 24p/25p/30p 4K Sony AX100 and Panasonic GH4 footage. I'm not sure what to call it: flicker, twitter, shimmer, glimmer etc. but I guess they may all be alright as long as they tell you there's this artefact visible in the image that often occurs in conjunction of

- Motion, either the panning motion by the camera or the motion of the subject itself in front of the stationary camera

- High level of contrast of the in-focused subject(s) that is in motion in either manner mentioned above.

For some of the footage, since the shooters don't mention the shutter speed they used, I assume this artefact might be due to the shutter speed being set too high, over 1/50th or 1/60th in most cases. Now the interesting thing is in virtually all the rest of the footage where the shooters specifically mention they strictly used the 180-degree shutter rule or the shutter speeds that doubled the frame rate (1/50th, 1/60th), I have still seen this artefact IN ALL OF THEM if the scenes in the footage fall into the two criteria I mention above.

I've watched the playback of all the footage using the 4K source files on a couple of my calibrated 60Hz 1080p Samsung displays. I've tried the playback in both downsized 1/4 (1080p) and actual size (1/4 of the 4K frame) and seen the same thing.

I'm in Cliff Totten's camp and suspect this visual anomaly that seems to be unique to slow frame rate 4K image is caused by a combination of factors. The probable main culprits:

- Shutter speed. Anything over doubling the frame rate is obviously too high. Even if the 1/50th or 1/60th is used it may still not be enough. You may have to go to the absolute limit (to minimize trailing and blurring) of 1/30th for the 24p/25p and 1/48th or 1/50th for the 30p and be extra careful about every camera move you make.

- Very high delineation of in-focused subjects. On the scale of 4K, 1080p image outlines are like the same image with a slight Gossian blur applied so we see much less problem when the subjects move. This could be helped by lowering the sharpening in-camera and lowering the contrast if the controls are available.

- Too low the frame rate. I mention this because I've rarely seen this artefact in the raw footage shot with the Sony AX1, Z100 and the FS700 with the raw 4K recorder at 50p/60p. So when it comes to watching pleasant 4K I think higher frame rates are not only preferable but necessary.

Or the easiest way to get rid of this annoying thing is playing back your slow frame rate videos on a 4K HDTV set that can do frame doubling or quadrupling and hoping for the best.