Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

In my previous post I have made a mistake about 3° link that I have just rectify:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Settings.jpg
Therefore now I but also you understand my presets are all right. My problem was my old HDTV.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, if not using Lanczos3, I've gotten sharper results with the project in 4K and output as an HD file as opposed to creating the project in HD.

Have you tried that if you don't need Layouter? I try not to use it in any case if I can since, depending on what you're doing with it, you'll lose some resolution. Obviously there are times when it's unavoidable.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

All my projects are multicam with NX5U , NX30U and CX700 so by default the AX1 files go into this project. I am told however that currently exporting a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 project will not use the Lanczos3 High Quality scaler which I always use for the best performance. However layouter does use this scaler so the best current performance to get a 1920x1080 file from a 3840x2160 file is to place in a 1920x1080 project so that the layouter can be used to scale in its track rather than the export scaler. At least until there is an update to correct the issue. The standard scaler , if you haven't changed it , is "fast and sharp".

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Layouter is active all the time unless you disable it in properties for each clip. If you place a file of different dimensions than the project in a track layouter automatically scales to the project size. No action needed and it will do this using the scaler chosen in the layouter setup. There is no difference in scaling this way than scaling on export. Scaling is scaling and the quality is governed by the scaler used. And at the moment one can choose a better scaler in layouter than on export. This is independent of the encoder chosen for export. My point in going to the AX1 was to crop to 1920x1080 anyway and as long as the crop is still greater than 1920x1080 pixels from the original 3840x2160 I find it is still a very good HD image when matched with the NX5U or NX30U which is the whole point for me and thus makes a good Bluray or DVD with further scaling and encoding. Cropping allows me to set the AX1 as a full stage fixed camera, set wider than the stage to allow people to walk up the stairs etc but still allow crop into the stage most of the time. Works great.

The only way to loose resolution in layouter is if you are using a low quality scaler or are zooming in and interpolation is needed. I always use Lanczos3 high quality and never crop in close to the actual pixel sizes of the project ( 1920x1080 for the AX1 files on the 1920x1080 60i project )

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Adriano - you've already got your answer on framerates, you should have an EU PAL camera, with 25 (actually 24.97?) framerate instead of the US/NTSC 30 (actually 29.97). This is pretty fundamental stuff, and the lack of knowledge is a strong indicator that the problem lies elsewhere than the camera!!

@Ken - I have a dual setup, primary is the bargain basement Seiki 39" 30Hz TV connected via HDMI - the stock settings were INCREDIBLY "off"... current ones are "acceptable", after adjusting... I played with the "sharpness" control just to see what would happen, and sure enough, the details in the grass made all that area "flash" pretty garishly! I already KNEW it looked fine with sharpness on 0, so this was an "exercise", but had I not already tweaked the settings extensively, it would have been shocking! Might have thought there was something "wrong" with "something"... or something....

Secondary is a basic 21-22"Samsung monitor, nothing fancy, it is full HD, on the DVI-I, supposedly at 59Hz. I had just enough room on the desk for it!

Even though both are "calibrated", they don't look identical... both look GOOD, but sure aren't "matched".... I may spend some time trying to get closer... but for the moment, "good enough!"

Agreed that PMH is far from ideal, but didn't feel like dragging everything into Vegas or Media Player. Soon enough...

As I said, I figured I could find ways to "muck up" the output, it's a talent... but I ALSO was able to get EXCELLENT results, same footage and some tweaking. I shot the clips for the express reason of checking both the temporal motion issue, and comparing the 4K to the 1080p options.

I DO "see" the 30p, but it's NOT "artifacts" in the images, but rather in the motion in the series of images. What I had on the primary screen was quite acceptable even if one is picky, the AX100 viewfinder and secondary monitor exhibit more stutter/judder. Slow, careful camera movements are definitely going to be needed for best results.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, I'll do an A/B over the next couple of days to compare both methods. It's hard to believe the HD quality could get much better given what I've seen from exporting to HD. I'll let you know.

But the problem here would be that I'd generally want my project archived in 4K and I'd export in HD only when needed. To create the project in HD would mean I'd have to later redo the entire project in 4K.

Unless I'm missing something, this is not very elegant.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Did a direct connect via HDMI to the Seiki, much smoother... at all settings, so definitely need to start "tuning" the computer. Made one mistake of dumping clips to a big but slow archive drive... moving to faster drive helped a lot, but might have to see about a newer faster drive and filling the other two RAM slots!

Fiddling in Vegas with settings, getting the feeling that the integrated video may not be quite up to the full task, but it's certainly usable for editing. Dealt with worse with HD!

I did a couple trial crops to 1080, still looked great, so I'm sure I can pan/scan/crop from a single camera and "fake" a typical multicam event shoot... that's nice... will pay for itself after selling a couple HD cams!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave,
you always keep telling me the same thing about my lack of knowledge. I understand you, you are right. But on my latest post I have just written only a confirmation about what you wrote, that is my Edius presets are good. My real problem is the old HDTV.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

What format will you archive your 3840x2160 project? Edius does not do XAVC-S at the moment so it could be XAVC or HQX both large file sizes and both could be placed in a HD project as a file for HD output. Uses two steps but you will do that anyway. Once to archive and once to create a HD output. No editing needed just place archive file on a HD timeline and export. Export times will be the same the only extra time is opening a HD project and placing the archive file on the timeline, at most a couple of minutes. This way you have full control over the scaling and encoding.

So yes edit in 3840x2160 then put into a HD project to create a DVD or Bluray. Unfortunately Edius will not allow a 30P project to be changed to a 60i HD project like Vegas will do though scaling in Edius is better !!!

When you do your A/B take it all the way to a DVD or Bluray and watch on the TV. That is the real test.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, actually the latest version of Edius does do XAVC-S.

But I've seen no difference between exports in XAVC-S and H264. Both look visually lossless.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yup. Proving once again that if we muck with something and make it 'wrong', we can either acknowledge something is wrong in our setup or blame it on the camera. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yes you are correct I forgot that 7.3 included XAVC-S. . I think XAVC-S is much of h264 anyway so not likely much difference.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

OK, so come prepared to LEARN, not to bash a camera because you don't have the fundamentals down...

I was "glad" I could reproduce your flashing (yes, it is QUITE the garish sight!), but you wanted to flush the camera down the drain because it was such a horrible purchase... seems a tad drastic, especially when it's EASY to take time, be patient, LEARN how to get the most out of the camera, and make it work! Sometimes you even have to read the manual, as horrific as that seems (reminding myself to research that "My Buttion" thingy!).

I noticed right away that the VF stutters, but now I realize it could be VERY helpful to guide camera technique - I don't "like" the noticeable 30p stutter, but now I can spot it and correct my technique, easy peasy... plusses and minuses...

I went into this camera knowing that there will be a learning curve, HDV was a straight up learning WALL at the time! Fortunately there was a LOT of discussion here...

DVi is a good place to come and ask questions, compare notes, and learn more than any human ever thought they could about video... but generally it's considered bad form to baselessly bag on a piece of tech or another member - Please take that into consideration - you'll find things work out better that way!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Oh, I'm looking forward to the adventure, nothing like doing it wrong a few times to make you feel so good when you get it right!

Coming off of a couple weeks dialing in a new computer (finally NO crashes for 3-4 days straight 24/7 running! Only minor program/driver related "bugs" now! And it's the quietest system I've ever owned to boot), it was nice to see the output from the AX100, even if there were some "flaws" that I suspect mean I need a little more tweaking and perhaps (at least I hope) a couple more minor upgrades! Even on the "lo-budget" build, I'm loving a 4K (4x 1920x1080!!) "desktop" on a single screen! I'm sure editing will be a magnitude of multiples better, even IF I'll be stumbling about sorting out the 4K workflow for a bit!

Life on the Bleeding Edge...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Bit the bullet and ordered an FDR-AX100 from B&H this weekend. Bought two extra batteries, since this is my first Sony I don't have any Sony gear. Also got two 128GB Class 10 cards. Then found the "kit" doesn't come with a battery charger (they make you use the actual camcorder to charge the battery), so had to purchase two battery chargers as well.

Does anyone have the info on how much space 4K XAVC-S is per minute on SD cards?

Going to test color this upcoming week with some of my studio LED lights (which have a slight spike in green). Testing flesh tones with different custom white balances and also warming gels on LEDs. I need this camcorder for indoor studio stuff with people.

I work exclusively in Final Cut Pro X ... any other users see any difference in ProRes vs ProRes HQ when transcoding, since the data rate is only 60Mps in 4K?

Looking forward to seeing what this camcorder can do, especially shooting in 4K and then doing post cropping and panning to 1080. I do many close-up facial type fashion shots and slow horizontal slider shots, where models are moving. So shooting a little wider, then doing precise tight cropping is what I need.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

[QUOTE=Dave Blackhurst;1845801]Adriano - you've already got your answer on framerates, you should have an EU PAL camera, with 25 (actually 24.97?) framerate instead of the US/NTSC 30 (actually 29.97).



Dave, as I am in PAL country I do believe this is incorrect. PAL is exactly 25 frames per second.

Regards,

Vaughan

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Vaughn -

It's hard to keep these things straight, and since they typically "round" the numbers, it's hard to keep track! I know my "30Hz/p" monitor is very picky when the Intel driver wants to feed it 29... Somehow I thought that PAL (could have sworn I saw it in the properties menus in Vegas...?) had the same slightly "off" framerate, but could just be us NTSC folks...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi Marc, did you get the new MIS-SHOE? I can not wait to read your review.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It's only NTSC that has the slightly off frame rates. It stems back to the introduction of color where it was found that the color signal at 30fps interfered with the sound sub carrier, so the frame rate was lowered a fraction to make it all work. Bit of a fudge really, but that's what happened.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I picked one up to use on the FDR-AX100 - great fit, easy to use, just what is needed.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

DM-Accessories MIS-SHOE Review

Here are my thoughts on this device:

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Remember how the HC! would downconvert in camera and output dv thru firewire
HDV Acquisition and DV output resulted in nicer dv than if shot dv
I'm wondering if there is an analogues situation with this cam?
IE is there anyway to shoot 4k and then have the camera downconvert so-as to reap the benefits of the enhanced 1080p without having to deal with the 4k files?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That downconversion feature exists in the AX100.

4k> HD is done very nicely in the camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's beautiful
How does it work exactly. I mean there's only one card slot right? and doesn't record to internal memory so how is the hd output?
ahh are there 2 slots?
SDXC Memory Card (Class 10) for XAVC S;
Memory Stick PRO Duo (Mark 2), Memory Stick PRO-HG Duo, Memory Stick XC-HG Duo, SD/SDHC/SDXC Memory Card (Class 4 or Higher) for AVCHD and still image

or is this the method?
External media device
VMC-UAM2 USB Adaptor Cable
(sold separately)
High definition
image quality (HD)
External media

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It's handled 'live', on-the-fly, as you are playing 4k clips from the camera direct to your HDTV.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

sorry Not what I was asking
so you don't get a file? for editing other than capturing the hdmi etc

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You don't have an option (that I could find) to output an HD file from the 4k internal to the camera. The HDMI downconverts automatically to whatever the display input accepts, but if you want to downrez a 4K file, you'd have to to that in "post". You can also crop/pan with pretty nice results.



A couple observations on the camera - I noticed while using the VF that you definitely see the RS/skew if you "fast pan" in 4k/30p. I found switching to the 1080/60p/50Mbps mode the RS/Skew was greatly reduced, comparable to the PJ760 I had sitting alongside. I'd have to say that to shoot the 4K/30p, you need to have good "traditional" camera technique for best results. Good in some ways, not in others, there will be times that "HD mode" will be "handy".

I also need to spend some time fiddling with the ND's and shutter speed in bright lighting - in lower indoor light, I didn't see the stutter that was very noticeable in bright sunlight (through the VF). Beginning to suspect that shutter speed may need to be watched carefully when shooting in 4K mode... but with the manual controls, that's not a big issue - really like how this is laid out, manual control will take a little bit to get memorized, but it's all there! Also figured out that the "my button" function allows you to select 3 "other" things you'd like immediate touch screen access too, and sets 'em on the left side of the LCD, pretty slick!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

tks Dave what I suspected With one card slot and no internal memory it stands to reason And it seems the usb out only pertains to files recorded in avchd.
I've a 1st gen i7 920 which pbobably wouldn't be up to the task of 4k so capturing the hdmi output at lower than 4k might be feasible albeit real time transfer but no different time wise than tape so again no big deal.
Well Dave without going out on a limb and being objectively subjective (lol) are the down rezzed moving pictures really worth all the extra aggrevation and expense? Will they (moms and dads) even notice the sharper/nicer video of little Suzie and Johnny?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

USB is used for file transfer for AVCHD and the new higher bitrate XAVC S.

My 920 was feeling a little sluggish with 28Mbps AVCHD multicam, so I just replaced with 4770K, cost wasn't TOO bad, as I did everything as cheap as possible! I'm guessing a 4K capable video card might have helped the old 920, but my Windows install was WAY overdue for a refresh anyway! It isn't about capture, as it's "just" files, it's more about being able to play back in full 4K. You probably could "work with" the 4K XAVC S files, but I wanted to be able to actually display them.

They still typically look sharper than 1080 files on a 1080 display, so to that extent... yes they have additional "value" for certain subjects. The Pan/crop tests I fiddled with looked as good or perhaps even slightly "better" than 1080 when cropped. The camera will very much "fit" what I intended it for, it may or may not be for "everyone" - the casual shooter may not find the additional sharpness worth the challenges of camera stability and how motion "looks".

Here's my overall take so far - 30p is going to require careful shooting, and the 1080 high bitrate XAVC S mode may be preferable for some things. 4K seems to be equivalent to shooting 30 VERY crisp "stills" per second, the individual frames are tack sharp. The resulting video is also very very sharp, making 1080/60p look at least "a little soft".

We are quite early in the "4K' introduction, adoption is probably even earlier. I suspect it will come faster than the SD to HD transition, I'm just trying to stay ahead of it - most people will probably continue to be perfectly happy with "HD", and I can't complain, won't be upgrading "everything" anytime soon! But the added resolution serves a purpose for me, and I'm liking the overall results and "feel" of the camera.

Wait a while and costs will drop, they always do, and the "tech" will likely improve too... or live life on the bleeding edge, have some extra sharp footage "in the can"... neither choice is "wrong", IMO.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Dave
you've used rx10 for video if I remember, how does its hd video stack up alongside the ax100.
In some ways hd video from the rx10 is like downsampled 5k i've read

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

My rx10 footage is not sharper then what my gh3 produces.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If they don't, it's time to take Mom & Dad to the ophthalmologist.

We just got back from Baltimore and I was shooting some video in the harbor area. I first watched on my 64" plasma and it was a treat. But then I watched on my 28" 4K monitor and that was a whole other experience. Unreal.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Frankly I'll STILL be using the RX10 for video (waiting for 4K or at least high bitrate XAVC S, ala the RX100Mk3). As nice as the AX100 feels, I've grown comfortable with the size/weight/controls of the RX10 (and the pocketability when needed of the RX100!) and I like to shoot stills as well... together, the three cameras make a "system", at least for me, and I can grab whichever seems most appropriate, or the lot in a small sling bag. No "complaints" about video quality from them, make a good multicam set as well.


That said, let's see if I can find a way to describe the difference in video quality...

RX10, AX100 in 1080p = you are watching very good video. You feel like you are there.

AX100 in 4K = you are looking through a window. You ARE "there".

This is on a cheap-o 39" TV (4K display), a 24" monitor, and a 22" monitor (1080) - the "effect" is surprisingly consistent, even on a "low resolution" 1080 display. The AX100 is producing a very sharp detailed image (or 30 of them a second).

I suspect that the CODECs and resolution of "HD" are pretty much at the limit of sharpness, and when we see 4K, we're realizing that there is "more" possible. Not entirely sure why 4K downrezed to 1080 somehow produces additional sharpness...

Will the average viewer at an average viewing distance really grasp what they are seeing? I *think* the answer is yes, but then again I walk in on family watching the SD channels all the time, even after I broke down and upgraded to "HD" FiOS... so maybe it doesn't "matter" as much as we want it to?!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I expect an RX10 redux with XAVC S is imminent. I'll be happy to see AVCHD and its silly bitrate limitations in the rear-view mirror.

I suspect that, in many cases, the additional sharpness is just aliasing produced by quick-n-dirty linear scaling algorithms. I'm still waiting on my AX100, but I look forward to playing with the scaling in Premiere. Of course, before running things back out to 4:2:0, 4K scaled to 1080 has a considerable chroma resolution advantage, but I don't expect to see that on Vimeo. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony just announced an 1" sensor with 4K suitable for next year upgrade

4K 60p and even 20Mp 22fps

Sony IMX183CQJ 5K 25fps 4K 60fps CMOS Sensor:

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

well, we'll see if the readout speed has been improved to reduce the RS

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I hope they develop a better sensor. As I see it, the problems are:

1. 4K is available only in 10-bit mode -- 12 bits (or greater) would be better.

2. No global shutter. Using a stacked desgn, Sony could put the global-shutter circuitry on another layer, something Alternative Vision already does.

3. 4K is windowed, effectively reducing the size of an already small sensor. The sensor should run at full resolution, oversampling the 4K for better post-de-Bayer luma resolution.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If these specs are accurate I don't think this sensor will be available for sale to other OEMs until much later or will probably never be. The current 1" B-CMOS sensor could be relegated to an item for sale like many of the company's 1/2.3" chips then.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hmmm, so this sensor could drop in to the existing RX/AX lines, and be a solid upgrade path for RX10Mk2 and AX200... fast moving tech! Sony isn't sitting still for long... and so far, I don't think they are "sharing" these 1" class sensors with other mfrs... they are busily creating a market niche around them with little or no competition.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Can anybody confirm that the AX100 can, in fact, output 4K (UHD) from it's HDMI port when it's not recording internally? (output 4K when "paused")

wondering if the new Atomos Shogun will work with the AX100 the same way it will work with the A7S.

CT