Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Well put Noa. Agreed.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi

There have been many samples of footage put out there from pre-production models and now retail ones, which if anything, according to your theory on pre-production models it seems, should have even more issues, so should be easier to find an example of your problem.

I put in GH4 on Vimeo and it came back with 800+ pages of results, is that not a big enough library? So I think I will accept what you mean is you haven't found any. ;-)

If you want a point and shoot camcorder then the AX100 is the best one there is for 4K, until next year, when all these discussions will no doubt start again. Video on a DSLR (or mirrorless) is a different beast entirely, one that doesn't suit your uses, the great thing about all this is, we have a choice to pick something that does suit us. For you, you are lucky to be able to afford to try both, and I'm sure all these discussions will be useful for helping those that can only manage to go with one or the other, to decide which camp to go into.

Regards

Phil

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Wrong as usual. First off, I have no 'theory' about pre-production vs production other than the fact that with a production model we know we have the final firmware. But you knew that.

Second, of these 800+ pages of results, I guarantee you that most are shot at wide angle. Filter out those shot with the 14-140 2nd gen lens at full telephoto, then of those filter out those shot hand held and not tripod mounted and that get back to me. Let's see if you've even got 3 pages remaining ;)

C'mon Phil, this is really getting silly.

Edit: You are truly so disingenuous Phil. Did you actually go through ANY of those '800+ pages'? I gave up at 10 when all the hits had nothing to do with the GH4. NONE were related to tele shots with the 14-140 lens and most were simply repeats of clips we have seen for months prior to release. Just amazing. This is what I fight about on the internet. People deliberately being disingenuous and misleading. It serves no purpose.

On THAT we can finally agree. Let it be done.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It sure looks like a classic rolling shutter effect.
Can it be related to the number of channels/ports the readout from the sensor is done?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Petter, I'm not sure what causes it, but I don't believe this issue is 4K related.

I say that because I do recall seeing this on my GH3 when shooting with the first gen 14-140 lens. I actually dismissed it as being 'heat wave' related since I generally saw it at extreme telephoto focal lengths when shooting distant subjects.

However then I was not doing an A/B, so I had no reference. Now that I have a reference (the AX100), I was able to see that this was an issue just related to the GH4/14-140 lens combination. It was easy to see since the AX100 was devoid of it shooting the same distance, same subject and same time.

In fact, as I think about it, I never had the issue with the RX10 either when using OIS.

What's interesting is that I tested the GH4 indoors, at the same focal length, and yet saw none of this 'heat wave' effect. I even moved the camera a bit to simulate a bit of a windy condition and I couldn't induce it indoors with the OIS on. But as soon as I'd shoot a distant object outdoors, the issue reappeared.

So perhaps it's somehow related to the spacing of the lens elements as they move to a position of shooting something at infinity. This together with the OIS, brings about this distracting effect. Interestingly, tripod mounted with the OIS off, the issue disappears.

So I can tell you under what conditions they occur, but I wouldn't pretend to know the exact cause.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks for the information Ken.

With your description it do sound as if you are onto something regarding OIS and infinity focus together with the electronic shutter.

If so, one would think it should be quite easy for Panasonic to issue a firmware fix for the lens and/or the body.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi

There is also the human nature element at work here. We all shake when holding something, and it may be the case that someones frequency of shake may just exasperate the problem, like constructive interference. This may explain why the problem isn't universal for the same combination of lens and camera for everyone.

I wonder if Ken gave the camera to someone else to shoot if it would manifest itself the same? I know it sounds unlikely, but working in electronics and mechanics these are just the sort of odd interactions we see sometimes out in the field, so worth ruling out if nothing else.

Edit, in the instruction manual the following is printed:

The stabiliser function may not be effective in the
following cases.
– When there is a lot of jitter.
– When the zoom magnification is high.

So maybe it just shouldn't be expected to work at maximum zoom or if the operator is shaking too much?

Regards

Phil

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks Pat. I can't recall that on the GH2 either, just the GH3 & GH4. So now we have two confirmed reports, but worse, with 2 different lenses. So something is up here, just not sure what. I've used many cameras and many shooting with telephoto lenses and I can't recall ever seeing this issue. I certainly don't have a case of the 'shakes' as my videos don't depict any more or less shaking then the next guy. The whole point of OIS is to help when magnification increases. For the system to become so much less effective as well as adding significant artifacts, is not good.

Since I don't carry a tripod with me when shooting for pleasure, this is kind of a non-starter for me. For others who routinely use tripods, it's probably not a major issue as long as they turn OIS off, which you should do anyway with a tripod.

Hopefully Panasonic will issue a firmware update as more people experience this...and I'm sure they will as we see more shooting at telephoto lengths.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Does the shake in the image appear in 1080p and 4k?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Noa, I'm sorry, I never checked it at 1080p. But given my similar experience with the GH3, a 1080p camera, I'd bet the answer is yes.

I truly doubt this is only manifested in 4K. At any rate I've returned my GH4.

We've got yet another report on another forum with a GH4 and the 14-140 lens. As I predicted, this issue will begin to pop up more and more as more folks shoot at telephoto lengths with the GH4. The other person reporting this, like me, also saw it on the GH3. So I'm really wondering if Panasonic will really release a firmware fix for this seeing as they didn't fix it on the GH4.

As the other poster mentioned in another forum, it makes his 14-140 lens virtually unusable. That's a real non-starter for me as I discovered.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's why it's always safe to wait for the early adopters to report :) I got my Sony rx10 also when it came out to find out afterwards the zoomspeed was next to useless while recording, it's a good thing I like about everything else on the camera so I"ll take that inconvenience for the next weddings to see if I still like it then and if it can find a permanent place in my gearbag, otherwise I"m selling it.

I was thinking of replacing my g6 with a gh4 so I have a gh3 and gh4 meaning same functionality, same accessories, but I also like the g6 a lot, a very small and powerfull camera, only a tad less sharp compared to my gh3 in 50p, strangly it's sharper in 25p.

I"ll just wait to see new reports appearing about the gh4, eventhough the ax100 is a great camera as well I find it too expensive for a handicam, it's price will come down for sure the next months.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Okay, I just tested 42 mm on the 14-42 ASPH 3.5-5.6 in 4K, 1080 60p and 30p. Did not notice the heat wave rolling shutter effect, but I did observe micro shaking in each mode while holding the camera very steady after a few seconds of recording. It's as if the camera-lens system decided IS didn't need to be active. When I resumed a slight pan IS would kick in again.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi

Certainly seems to be related to rolling shutter. Rolling shutter in 1080P is much less so the effect is less as well. Is the wobble present if OIS is turned off but the camera still hand held and shaking?

Regards

Phil

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Only lens I have with OIS that can be turned off is the Leica 45 f2.8. With this lens handheld as steady as I can possibly get it and OIS turned off, there is plenty of micro shaking. My age and 3 shots of espresso probably has something to do with that. All lenses seem to do fine with OIS on and camera resting in fixed position on the desk.

Regards

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

So here's my hypothesis: With Panasonic lenses with OIS turned on while mounted on the GH4 when lenses are in moderate to full telephoto focal lengths, OIS will intermittently stop being active, introducing micro shake and, in turn, a rolling shutter issue when recording in 4K. I will not have time to post examples in the next few weeks, but this seems like something that would be necessary for confirmation by a wider set of users. The intermittent OIS could be an issue at wide and normal focal lengths, I haven't looked for this.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Getting back to the AX100, two of the reasons I sprung for the GH4 instead of the AX100 were better dynamic range on the GH4 (specifically fewer blown highlights and better highlight roll off) and my perception that there was small amplitude, high-frequency shaking (or micro-shaking) on the ax100 in telephoto focal lengths even when OIS was turned on. Ken, I observed this in some of your earlier samples. Don't remember if you had the OIS in active mode or not. Of course, acceptable stabilization is to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

Is my sense that this is an issue with the AX100 shared by others? I have read both that AX100 OIS is effective and that it doesn't measure up to earlier Sony 1080p camcorders. Is there any consensus on these things?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm going to take a guess here (started viewing 4K on my freshly and cheaply built and "almost" stable 4K capable computer/"monitor"...).

The added detail of 4K starts to show EVERY flaw or glitch more noticeably as I played back 4K AT 4K... little things mostly, but 4K on a 39" full screen and you start to spot "little things". AND those little things could have been introduced at ANY stage in processing, from capture to edit to upload to playback... but definitely was seeing "things" at 4K resolution - I'm sure they would have been inconsequential at a greater viewing distance, but at 2-3 feet from a 39" screen... temporal issues (30P motion stutter/skip) were also more noticeable, in SOME cases, yet not others...

SO, I'll hypothesize that at least some of the "micro glitching" we see is because we now see the tiny little movements, and because the rest of the image is so sharp, our eyes can't "unsee" them. We are attracted to the flaws by the way they stick out, where in a "blurry" (AKA lower definition!) image those flaws are covered up.

I have wondered a bit about how a "glamour" video such as a wedding shoot will go with close ups showing EVERY detail, perhaps some of this will not be as desirable as a "dreamy" soft image?? Maybe sometimes detail is NOT everything it's cracked up to be? Perhaps we are not entirely meant to have "perfect vision" in all situations? I've always heard about how the eye is easily tricked and fooled, with 4K we may discover things we wish we hadn't? Ah, brave new frontier!




Just as an "aside", building a computer to work with 4K has been quite an adventure on the "bleeding edge", so many tiny things that have to be "tuned", tweaked, or adjusted to work as expected - this was definitely NOT an "easy" build, and has a way to go (haven't even started installing photo and video editing software YET... waiting for another, hopefully stable, set of RAM to arrive, first set only one stick out of 4 runs at rated speed!).

There's no doubt that the display looks a lot better than my aging 24" monitors, and I'm looking forward to editing on this huge screen instead of multiple monitors... and one of these days having an AX100 in hand to experiment with!

The "fun" of being on the bleeding edge is that sometimes things DON'T work as expected 100%, and it takes time to figure out workarounds or options or where our "system" failed and must be adjusted... this is NOT "buy and go" territory! I've said it before, at least in video/imaging, wings don't fall off and no one dies, but it's still "interesting"!

While I am looking forward to 4K, whether the AX100 or if an RX10M2 is announced soon or whatever, it is an adventure, and will take some getting used to. I will say my eyes very much appreciate 4K!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Pat -

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

As I watched some user videos posted here again as a test of my 4K system/display, I was definitely thinking "time to pull out the old support rigs that have been collecting dust".... stability of the camera, along with "good camera technique" is once again an "issue". I'm thinking about shooting in windy conditions, handheld, all the "nightmare" shooting situations... stuff that was mostly left behind shooting a 7xx series BOSS equipped camera!

That said, for the most part, I'd expect the stabilization on the AX100 to be reasonably adequate if one understands the limitations. Myself, I'll go dust those "rigs"! And keep a 7xx series camera around for when it's a better "tool"!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

In my PC there are a INTEL Core i7 980X 3.33Ghz 12MB processor and NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 video card. Do you think they are sufficient to edit 4K files of AX100?
Thanks for some infos.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Pat, to be honest, in my A/Bs I actually could not say that the GH4 had better DR. I looked for it, but didn't see it. If either camera has an advantage here, it is not, IMO, a deal maker or deal breaker.

All my early tele shots were with Standard OIS. I was reluctant to use Active, which is definitely better than Standard, for fear of losing resolution. As time has gone on, I think that fear was unwarranted and I'm using it more than I had. I did not use Active in my A/Bs with the GH4, just as a point of information.

However, although the OIS on the Sony is not as good as the BOSS system they use with their small sensor cameras, I'll take it every day of the week over what I've seen in the GH4's OIS with tele lenses. The heat wave effect is just horrible, there's no other way to put it.

I don't believe I've seen any wave of AX100 owners that are unhappy with their cameras because of the OIS. It's very usable and fairly effective, if not as effective, as the better OIS implementations by Sony in their small cams.

So I'd much prefer an OIS that's somewhat less effective, but largely artifact-free, than one that has this 'heat wave' effect. IMO, that's just unusable.

Keep in mind that the only reason that Sony didn't put in the more effective OIS (at least this is the prevailing theory that makes sense) system in the AX100 is because the sensor and lens assembly is so much larger than in their small sensor cams.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave, there's micro-glitching and there's the 'heat wave' effect. Two very different effects. IMO, 4K has nothing to do with the heat wave effect. I and others have seen it with the GH3 in good ol' HD.

Add to that the fact that the AX100 is free of this heat wave effect and I've come to the conclusion this is a 'Panasonic exclusive'.

Relating to your observations about 30p, I just bought a Toshiba 4K laptop. I will be using this as my main computer editor, either connected to an external 4K monitor (the 24" Dell or the 28" Samsung...if the Samsung ever comes off of back order status) or on its own 15.6" 4K screen, when away from home.

What's interesting about the Toshiba 4K laptop, is it has a native refresh rate of 60p. As a result, playing 4K files on it look very much like my 64" plasma with the frame doubler in effect. It's quite smooth and the individually calibrated 'Technicolor' screen is just awesome. This is why I've always implored anyone watching AX100 4K 30p files on their HDTV, directly from the camera, to engage frame rate doubling on their HDTV. It just makes for a so much smoother experience.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave, I'm in the market for a light weight tripod for exactly that reason. I won't use it most of the time, but I'll have it for those windy days...like today!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hey Ken, did you get my email? I'll be in your neck of woods tomorrow, and i'll have my lightweight tripod :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Darren, no, never got a PM.

Which tripod do you use?

Edit: We actually moved from Plainview, further out on the L.I. about a year ago. I never actually updated my profile.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

A bit off topic but since we are talking about stabilization, jitter and rolling shutter when zoomed in below a short clip made with my sony cx730 fully zoomed in, just to see the effect of the "magic eyeball".

The first clip was taken under time pressure, so I could keep it more steady if I can take my time but considering the circumstances I"m happy with that shot, notice how fast the camera the camera can zoom in, re-adjusts the whitebalance and exposure and gets the focus right, all of those where in automode at that time.

One question to ax100 owners, is the ax100 able to zoom in that fast? Just asking because Sony seemed to make some changes in that area, like on my rx10, for whatever reason. The rx10 can zoom faster but only in standby mode so it's a build in restriction.
Here's another one where I could take my time to handhold it steady.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Don't have the camera yet, but the manual states, "The zoom speed will become a little slower during movie recording."

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Misunderstanding or wrong purchase?

I have just get the Sony Shoe adapter because I need to plug a led light or an additional mic. on AX100. This is the light: 312AS Bi-Color Changing Dimmable LED Video DSLR Camera Light Panel 3200k~5600k | eBay

On this forum you have told me that adapter is ok if I like to plug that light. Today I have get it: ADP-MAC- SONY MULTI INTERFACE SHOE ADAPTER for active interface accessories | eBay
but I cannot plug my led light and every other item like additional microphone because they have bigger shoes and they cannot fit on the Sony adapter shoe, that shoe is too much narrow.
Is it a wrong purchase? Do they have to send me another adapter; is it not the right adapter?
Thanks for some info.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

There are several adapters so you need to get the correct one for your needs. I do not use ANY of them so you will need to check yourself what you need. There are some that just raise the shoe above the camera body ( I think that is the one you have) and then there is one that converts to the larger shoe. YOU need to check but I think it is the ADP-MAA

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Noa, the timing for the AX100 from full wide to full telephoto is as follows from my own testing:

* Camera in standby- approximately 3 seconds
* Camera recording- just under 5 seconds

It's quite possible that camcorders with larger lenses & sensors are more difficult to zoom at a very high rate of speed.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Noa, Ken -

We've discussed a few possible reasons for the "slow zoom" - physics of the larger lens elements is one possible reason (avoiding too much mass moving too fast, but it works OK when NOT recording?!), avoiding "bad" camera technique (crash zooms, despite their usefulness at times), and avoiding the capturing of zoom noise on audio (faster zooming makes a lot more noise as the motors and gears operate at the higher speed).

While I suspect all thee above could be "reasons" for the design decisions, only the last one has a very slight validity! And I think we ALL far prefer the OLD two step Handycam zoom system where it was possible with a light touch to throttle the zoom at slow speed, or punch it for a crash zoom! Even though the 2 step switches could be twitchy, they usually worked once you got the feel for them!

The "current" design philosophy may well be the result of online whinging over "I don't like the way my zoom works, it's too sensitive" (or whatever), and the "solution" was a single SLOW speed instead of a user adjustable single speed or the old 2 step.... perhaps sufficient amounts of online whinging over the "new improved" (that really ISN'T!) system will result in firmware changes to restore user choice?! The slow zoom in record mode is one of the very few widely criticized "features" of the otherwise well received RX10... I personally believe that a firmware "fix" via an added menu/switch selection is both feasible and desirable. (add 4k in, and unify the LANC while they're at it, dang it!)



@Adriano -
The adapter you apparently erroneously ordered is for MiS (current camera shoe) to AiS (previous accessory shoe), to allow use of "old" AiS accessories on the new MiS cameras, with the needed electronic connections. ALL you really need is a cheap COLD shoe riser, and a small file or Dremel type tool to mod the shoe to fit the camera by putting a couple notches in the base so it can fit into the shoe!! I will be modding my lights and such when I get hands on the AX100 so that they "fit"... or just use a bracket.

For whatever reason, Sony continued the oddball "notched" design of the AiS in the MiS, so that rather than the shoe having to slide in from an open "end", there are TWO openings in the "shoe rails", meaning there is a shorter distance for the "accessory" to slide into the shoe, but you must align and engage the notches, or as I suggest above, CREATE the needed notches on a cheap plastic adapter/riser.

Strangely, this is NOT an issue on the Cybershot MiS shoes, but IS on the Handycam(s?). I suspect this is due to some underlying architectural issues where the MiS may not have all the same features on both lines, so the Handycam MiS is notched to ONLY accept compatible accessories (??) - don't have any evidence to "prove" this other than the already discovered differences in LANC implementation that are dang annoying! But these cameras are two different lines from two different "divisions", and they apparently are NOT operating on the same page when it comes to accessories!!

Cybershots have to use their own "remote", and can't (at least thus far I haven't figured out a hack) use the MULTI adapter for old A/V jack LANCs, despite using the same controller chip (and likely) protocol... IOW, when is a LANC not a LANC? When Sony fiddles with proprietary implementations!!.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

5 seconds in record mode is "doable", at least a lot more useful then the 13 seconds on the rx10, I don't think Sony builds this limitation in because they don't want their user to crashzoom or to lower the noise during zoom, we"ll probably never know anyway, it can be either intentional or a hardware limitation, in any case they should give us the possibility to choose the speed ourselves.

Some may doubt the usefulness of fast zooms but for reframing purposes in run and gun they are very valuable, especially when you shoot solo, which is what I only use them for. the zoom itself gets cut out in post.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The toothed and too big ring of the adapter doesn't plug on the AX100 shoe. Another guy did another wrong purchase. Sony makes me mad.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I know cheap adapters are problematic. Look here: Delamax Adattatore per slitta standard per flash, per videocamera Sony: Amazon.it: Elettronica
Does anybody can give me the right, precise and reliable adapter for Sony AX100? I need it as soon as possible.
Thanks

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It took just a couple searches to find this, which states AX100 compatibility:

Sony]Sony Multi Interface Shoe to Universal Cold Shoe Adapter | eBay Multi Interface Shoe to Universal Cold Shoe Adapter

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Adriano -

I realize you have to have a smaller diameter portion of the clamping "knob" so it doesn't hit the sides of the cavity where the MiS is recessed - there was one cheaper option, but it looked to be the same diameter, and probably would hit the sides... but THIS one might work, even if you had to add a couple washers:

Trio Three Hot Cold Shoe Flash Light Sound Bracket Stand with 1 4 Mount Adapter | eBay

I saw the upper part of this assembly (3 heads, and 1/4" mount) for $7.99 in other listings... leading to the option of taking one of the many listings for something similar to this:

Pro 1 4" Mount Adapter for Tripod Screw to Flash Hot Shoe Dual Cold Foot Camera | eBay

ADD one of the many listings similar to THIS:

Photo Cold Shoe Flash Mount Adapter Hot Shoe 1 4 Thread Screw Bracket DG | eBay

As long as you have access to a hardware store with various washers (use as many as needed, super glue them together and to the knob) to make sure the knurled knob will clear the body, and some way to cut the needed notches, it's cake to make a suitable adapter for quite cheap!

One must be a bit creative when on a budget, but you may want to just get the $30 one I posted first... I am not sure you've got the creative chops to "DIY", given some of the basic questions you've asked along the way... but for others, I hope the suggestions above will be useful!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I thought when all these Multi-Interface Shoe equipped Sonys came out that the company had begun to play nice with their customers by giving them choices not limited to their narrow and overpriced offerings. Even if this meant long-time users like myself had to buy one more piece of equipment like the MIS-to-AIS adapter so all the old accessories could be used on the new devices.

Then came this trick of making the hotshoe bay small enough so that most (or all?) 3rd party standard coldshoe devices cannot fit into.

I can't blame Sony newbies like Adriano for being quite lost at this shoe mount thing.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It may have something to do with not shorting the contacts at the front of the shoe? A metal adapter might potentially do that...

Sony gives new features, but sometimes blocks others... that seems to be part of the price of "cutting edge" technology. Sometimes it's backwards compatible, sometimes not, sometimes it works differently from expectation...

Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but I'd rather have the cool new toys, even with the quirks!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The new shoe location also means there is a smooth top to the camcorder. The first one Adriano got will lift the shoe above the body so that devices that need that clearance will work. Newer Mis device do not need this clearance. A combination of the one Adriano has and a dumb converter will work I think with no modification though of course there will be two little shoes to carry around. Since the dumb hot shoe doesn't use any of the electrical connection it will not matter. I expect that just like the NX30U compared to the PJ760 the Pro version of the AX100 will have a normal shoe as well as the Mis connection !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's another way to configure it, use the shoe adapter he has (MiS to AiS), and just add an AiS to dumb cold shoe adapter on top of it!