Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

oh yeah. I'm thinking of the 4K transition like it was with the HD compared to the VHS (I mean SD) . Im sure that by then the same guys who had a look at HD said exactly what we're saying now about the 4K
now. Back then everybody was saying "I don't need no stupid HD, there are no TV sets for that, I'm fine with my XL1!". Yeah right, look at them now LOL

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Absolutely, I went through this very thing myself. 9 years ago when I started my websites I decide to film in full 1920x1080 hd from the start and people thought I was nuts at the time. Now their SD content looks horrible, whereas I have 9 years worth of 1920x1080 content that still looks pretty good. It was totally worth it, and I feel the same about 4k now, it's a no brainer to me and I'll never go back to 1080p.

On a separate note, I had a question about something I notice when I film in the garage area of my film house which has florescent lights. I notice what can best be described as "stripes" on the display and in the final recordings. They are faint, but they are there and I presume they are due to some weird frequency issue with the florescent lights. Is there any way to correct this, like are there special film safe florescent lights that can be used? They are the typical in ceiling long tube florescent lights which is cool because I can film 360 degrees without worrying about filming my own lighting gear, but I hope that stripe issue has a solution.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Peter
Im sorry but Ive got the camera yesterday, I'll let dave or others with more experience answer that


Dave,
ran more tests with evening lights and the 4K panning will be a challenge. I'll shoot 4 anyway , at least the first half.
But the reason why I'm telling you this is because it doesn't match, the whole thing doesn't match. let's say that again I compared the 1080 of both the XA20 and AX100 and the sony did better, also panning. Now the limitation of the 4K panning starts smelling funny to me. Was it intentional? It is exaggerated , doesn't look "normal" to me.

well, you know how much I "love" the marketing at sony's, so maybe Im being a little "defensive" here, but come on... it doesn't look right.


anyway I'll keep the XA100 and after the first game I'll take a closer look at the AX1 (no face detection and that would be a problem for me because I do lots of interviews and I'm not going back to manual!). But I want to see if 2.5K more magically cured the panning thingy.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Not sure about the version of the AX100 you're using but on my PAL, AX100E, version I remember having the range of usable shutters for shooting 4K like 1/25, 1/30, 1/50, 1/60, 1/80, 1/100......and faster but hardly usable especially in slow frame rate 4K due to the judder and flicker problems. I suppose your normal shutter is 1/60 for your camera's 30fps frame rate then you can try varying the shutter slower or faster in either direction and see if the striping goes away. Of course you have to also vary the iris or gain to compensate for that or even the speed of your camera movement if the required shutter is a little too extreme. If that still doesn't help I'm afraid you have to avoid that scene or at least change the light. The refreshment cycle would probably not be in sync with your camera's frame rates.

One thing I absolutely agree with Anthony about shooting 4K with this camera is getting good image is very unforgiving. You can't just get by with a lousy or even less than precise shooting technique. I haven't shot a single handheld cilp that would be considered stable enough similar to countless 1080p shots I could normally get from any of my small form factor Sony HD handycams. Good god the AF and zooming are very good. Though the AF may be a bit slow but it's always precise, hardly hunts and the focus transition is smooth. The zoom speed may not be fast enough for some people but the zooming action is smooth with no wiggles or wobbles.

It will take some practice to get it right for this new 4K thing. I foresee either a tripod, monopod or steadicam will be an essential accessory to this camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@Peter -
I've seen that "ghost" band that creeps down the screen with my garage flos, and with what I think were some nasty old mercury halide lights in a gym.... you notice it when you have a large "solid" color area, and will see a slightly darker band slowly creep down across the screen...

I suspect playing with shutter speed may help, I'm sure it's a function of the 60 cycle A/C and perhaps cheap ballasts, but it might be worth asking in the lighting section? LED or incandescent fills are what I'd suggest, and avoiding large expanses of single color!


@Anthony -
Remember that in 1080, they probably toss at least "some" of the data, but with 4K, they have to keep more...there's a certain amount of unavoidable lag in the sensor reads, and it gets worse with 4K, based on how the camera performs, my guess is that is what is happening - The "Bionz X" is a newer faster processor, but may still be a little short on horesepower - I definitely get the feeling that the engineers were pushing the limits a bit in this camera... it's not an evil scheme, just physics being a fickle mistress!

A possible partial solution is to frame wider than you otherwise might, hopefully minimizing background movement (where skew is most noticeable) by panning a bit less. Pan/crop in post... In theory this should also reduce the number crunching required (less changes in the frame to account for). Not "ideal", but one way to use the added resolution to our advantage, instead of our frustration!

In time, one can assume that electronic designs and processors will improve to better deal with this sort of thing. This is not the first time I've seen "physics" issues of this sort, that can only be overcome with faster number crunching, better circuitry design, and new algorithms...


I found using the viewfinder helped a LOT with handheld stability, my technique went south fast with the LCD, and I too would concur that proper support is far more critical with 4K... digging out old rigs, picked up a new monopod I'd been looking at for a long time, and planning to take SOMETHING for additional support if at all possible! The results justify the extra gear.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The sharper the image the more obvious a slow frame rate. 4K images are sharper than 1920x1080 so even at the same frame rate will exaggerate the stutter of 30P very clear in panning. In auto, if the AX100 is like most Sony's it will increase the shutter speed making the problem worse. Manual control of shutter speed to get the motion blur one expects from 50i or 60i is noticeably different to a slower or faster shutter speed ( at least on my FDR-AX1 ). Use ND's to maintain exposure.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

thanks Ron,
for me the shutter speed of choice would be 1/125 , so I'm testing the difference between 1/125 and 1/60. I'll be shooting (professional) soccer players running fast , actions like a corner kick following the ball , or a goalkeeper kicking to the opposite side again following the ball, cases where I have to pan, I just have to. While I see a slight difference @1/60 compared to 1/125 still it wouldn't be enough to add the blur of the targets running to the panning of the 4K. In other words I'll have to balance between the two bad things :)
As always we have the tool and we make it work, but at least in here we can open our mouth and bitch a little about it LOL

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I really don't think 30P will do what you want for your application. There is a reason sports networks use 60P for HD broadcasts. 60P was the reason I got the FDR-AX1 too.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

well , maybe you mean the 30p of the 4K of the AX100 , right? Because Ive been shooting 30p the same soccer games with a sony EX1r for two years with no problem whatsoever panning.
and back we go to the AX100 and the need of spending 2.5K more for the facedetectionless ax1 .
Now it may make some sense (from the marketing point of view at Sony's I mean)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Anthony, I think if you had no issues with 30p in the past, you'll have no issues with the 30p of the AX100. I would try to stay as wide as possible when panning quickly to minimize the RS issue. But depending on what's in your FOV (straight lines that are obvious to the viewer), the RS may not be much of an issue one way or the other.

I try to keep my shutter locked at 1/60th, but I can see the possibility of 1/125 working better in your application.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

With all due respect, physics couldn't care less what you just have to do. There are physical laws that dictate what you have to do to get smooth motion with very high resolution formats. Professional film DPs have been grappling with these for close to a hundred (well, 60 or 70) years shooting fine grained 35mm, 70mm and even the more recent IMAX formats and have published charts and graphs and whole books devoted to how fast you can pan and zoom and track and achieve proper motion without artifacts. This isn't new and bears some study. This isn't uncharted territory, no pun intended. I wish Charles would weigh in on this.

Ron is right. There is a reason that no broadcast network uses anything but 60i or 60p at standard shutter speeds. Quit screwing around with frame rates and shutter speeds and just do it the normal way. There is never a good reason for 30p unless you are doing cooking videos for web distribution to be viewed only on a PC monitor. Do they do the World Cup in 30p? No.

With all due respect.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks Ken,
I believe that it will work too, with lots of care and attentions, and I'll do exactly what you said by the way. Still this is a problem with the processing in the camera. Let's stop finding excuses like the 30p or the shutter speed because it's not. The difference between 1/60 , 1/125 and 1/180 are miniscule: it's not the speed and it's not the framerate: now it may be the incompetence of the engineers (but I don't think so) or most likely some intentional limitation (that I believe way more, getting all my bets at the moment). Because Ken these people make video cameras for a living :) They can't possibly come out with a model very good at stills but you can't move anything because it will screw up the whole thing. That's amateurish, not even teenagers work like that. Expect laughs from us, because we are not THAT stupid after all.

/rant off

that said I'm with Dave about this: we have the gear and we make it work.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

yeah , the ex1 and r and xa10 don't have 60p and work fine panning. so, what now?

I work every once in a while as a backup in a major thing in the live music video industry , and your framerate pales compared to the processing they get.those things mostly software cost an arm and a leg. and come in the form of a truckload of equipment. now you were saying about the 60p and 30p? LOL
come on.... that's for teens telling other teens which toy car runs faster

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Actually I'm about to re-consider the whole thing here. Regardless about "broadcast stuff" needed to perform or 30p shutter, now I'm thinking about if there is room for a class thing against the manufacturer here. Given that's a bad processing, now the buyer when bought the camera (buyers usually do that) then he/she had a reasonable expectation that it would've been able to use it for what it says on the back of the LCD and the box: 4K in motion and not just stills, correct? stills are for still cameras, not camcorders, correct?

hmmm . I believe that the combination of price and advertisement gave that reasonable expectation.
yes, there may be room for a good solid class thingy here.

see? regardless of the "broadcast" and similar.
it's da processing, in there that needs to be recalled or refund.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

We agree, you work within the limitations of the camera as we do with all cameras. But I do believe that most of the AX100 limitations are the result of 30p if the intent is to shoot a smooth action video or sports related video. I really haven't noticed limitations other than 30p in achieving the desired end result.

I think most of us agree that RS is just not the issue that some made us think it was with their wild waving of the camera back & forth. That's not to say we shouldn't be cognizant of RS, but I think 30p is far more of a limitation than either RS or anything to do with processing.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

absolutely not. It's the processing. 30p and 60p are close, there is a difference but not to explain the building across the street curving like a cartoon at the very first slow panning. come on. Everybody now can build a nice digital still camera but the AX100 is advertised as a camcorder. Sony Sony ... that's not good, not good at all. Do the right thing: recall the camera and try again , this time with motion in mind and not just stills.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's what I have been saying all along but if one keeps insisting you can shoot fast moving soccer games with fast pans in 30p with no issue, then they have been choosing a wrong framerate to start with. Saying you hardly see any difference between 25p/50p or 30p/60p is also nonsense, unless you do a creeping slow pan but any faster pan will show a big difference. Combine 30p with the awful rolling shutter of the ax100 in 4K and you have the worst possible image you can get. That rolling shutter btw doesn't have to be a problem, for me it won't be an issue because all my shots are nice controlled from a tripod with slow pans, but when you insist in shooting soccer games in 4K and 30p with a ax100, that's about the worst choice you can make.

Anthony; you don't have to take any advise that's been given here of course and you can continue to blame Sony for whatever they do wrong to you but for me it would be simple, want to shoot a soccer game? shoot 1080p 60p.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ive been shooting 30P with EX1 , EX1r and XA10 for years.

60P came out yesterday, and of course makes things a little easier, but just a littler bit easier. The problem with the AX100 is the processing. It was a mistake, or intentional. nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with the 30p. With this kind of amateurish processing even if it had 2000p would be bad. What I can do (and I will) is to try an external recorder over hdmi . I don't need comments on something that has been done for years in 30p and Im not going to discuss 30p anymore.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I don't know if anybody shot or remembers 16mm film which at the time wound thru my Bolex, Beaulieu and ArriBl at a constant 24fps.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

aah yes, those where the days, even the Beaulieu could do 50fps :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

good news :

@ Dave and Ken

following the goal of "making it work" I did a test on a real soccer practice session at night, tonight. Lights were poor but I had to check the whole 4K system at the shutter speed of 1/125 (because that's what I'm going to use for the real coverage)
the setting therefore was the actual setting that I'll use on a real soccer game
tripod on fluid head, camera 0on macro-rail , plus ikan 15mm rail system to hold the monitor on articulated arm and a temporary mount for shotgun and lights, two handle bars , lanc remote, 7inch monitor via micro hdmi (that's surprisingly tight, better than the mini of other cameras)
camera in 4K 30p , shutter 1/125 manual, iris auto , gain auto. Custom white balance based on the monitor by "eye" -my eye LOL
no stabilization (off)

3 surprises:
1. the panning was a lot smoother than my previous landholding tests (so the stabilization contributes to make it that bad)
2. the AF was easily fooled and out of control (this is bad news for me, but the lighting was really poor. I'll have to test more on that, but it's not going to be such a big deal, used to shoot in manual focus many soccer games with the XL1 -back then-)
3. Outstanding noise reduction, cinematone (cool, really cool. I'll keep it as a standard setting). The exposure may need a minus as compensation (the camera like to shoot a little bright, but I didn't pay particular attention to that, tonight to be honest)

the most important aspect was that the panning and zooming at the same time went well. I kept my usual shooting style that I do with 1080-60p. On 4K I'll pay more attention to the pannings of course but I didn't tonight for this test, in purpose.

the footage in 4K is nothing less than amazing


info on the lanc remote :
it's a vivitar 8-button 20 bucks remote that will activate 8 zoom speeds plus 1 variable, selectable right on the remote and while shooting. Plus gives start-standby , focus, on/off of the camera, on-screen info on/off (only LCD). That's the only lanc remote that works on the multiport with the 10pin adapter (for the records a libec 3dv and varizoom didnt work at all)
info on the hdmi:
it's clean, no icons and no info.

as always shooting for real can make a huge difference, in this case I didn't expect such a good outcome. I really didn't
life is wonderful, sometimes.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Having played with the camera for a week, test shooting only in 4K/25p mode all I can say is I wish I could get a usable panning shot at a shutter speed above 1/50th. Unless I do a very slow creeping pan for a cooking show I really can't see myself using a shutter speed that high (1/120, 1/125....etc.) and get a usable footage.

That may be great for pulling stills frames but how would you make it look even OK on the computer monitor? There's no doubt the single wish list that would make this camera truly great is 4K/50p, 60p. That's why the AX1 has its place.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

the shutter speed keeps targets in motion under control, but has very little to do with the bad panning of the AX100 when stabilized, which is most likely due to an intentional bad processing or to a faulty software of the stabilization which is extremely complicated on the AX100 (involving croppings, even zoom focal adjustments). Also the framerate gives a very little relief. The stabilization turned off on the other end makes a big difference for shooting on a tripod actually. Please get the camera again and use it before spreading info on the wind about something that you don't know squat about it.
now try 30p and 60p on the camera that you actually have and tell me if you see any difference panning. 60p helps but very little, mostly for slow motion but panning is pretty much the same.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I've tried everything including mounting the camera on a tripod so I could turn off the stabilization when panning or tilting. Actually this camera's stabilization in the standard/optical-only mode is nowhere near impressive and the active/digital+optical mode though more effective, reduces the resolution by cropping and rescaling and as you say may interfere with the motion when panning the camera.

I guess if you can get acceptable results with that combination of shooting techniques of yours then fine, I have no problem with that. But the 180 degree shutter rule for slow frame rate cinematography has been there for a reason. It's certainly not some stupid number invented by people who didn't know what they were doing.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

There is no drop in resolution when you use the active steadyshot. The sensor is super-sampled so you can crop in to the image at the sensor level without loosing any image quality. However I prefer to turn this off as it can make pans stutter a little more as the electronic stabiliser tries to hold on to motion within the frame.

Pan judder and high resolution are not good friends. As you increase image resolution the edges in a scene become more obvious and your eye's will latch on to these, so when they move you will notice judder more. Try simply defocussing a shot and comparing that to a well focussed shot, the judder will appear to be lower in the defocussed shot.

If shooting sports, moving vehicles etc it's likely that the viewers focus of attention, the players, the cars etc, will be fairly static within the frame and this is what the viewer will be looking at, so they won't notice the background (which may well also be out of focus) judder.

Another thing that makes a difference is noise. As image noise is largely random, a noisy picture will mask some of the judder as the motion of the noise is random from frame to frame. The less noise there is in a shot the more obvious judder becomes.

None of these are unique to the AX100. The AX100 "suffers" from having a very clean, very sharp image often with very deep DoF. Reduce the DoF (use ND not faster shutter), maybe add a little gain (or a touch of noise/grain in post) and you might be surprised by how well your pans work.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Alister,

There 's an interesting test of the active steadyshot on the Sony CX900 which also engages the Clear Image Zoom. Though the test was done at 1080p resolution as the the CX900 doesn't shoot 4K I feel this is quite similar to what I got when zooming in near the tele end when in active steadyshot mode in 4K. At the wide end or close to it the difference in resolution is not really noticeable in practice. Over at the dpreview.com site they also found something similar when testing the Sony RX100 Mk3 with the test chart when active steadyshot was used in the video mode as well.

-
I haven't yet shot anything at 1080p with my AX100 but given the two cameras have more or less the same hardware the results should be the same at that resolution.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Anthony, I have a FDR-AX1 which can shoot 30P at 60 or 100 Mbps and 60P at 150Mbps so I am able to shoot at exactly the same frame rate with the same codec with and without image stabilizer just like the AX100. There is a big, big difference between 30p and 60P. For your information there is also a noticeable difference between 30P at 60Mbps and 100Mbps. An advantage of 4k is the ability to crop and pan the image in post to 1920x1080. However you may find that 30P at 60Mbps with image judder may not give you this capability without a lot of artifacts. Scaling will give you the advantage of getting close to a 422 image though.

You have clearly been happy with 30P in the past, your choice. I find the judder of 30P unacceptable to me for anything other than fixed camera shots. That includes everything on Youtube !!! Information content is most important which covers all the cell phone videos we see but if the intent is a quality image then minimum judder is a must and why the professional broadcasters use 60i or 60P for sports .

If you want 4k think more than 4 times the storage and processing power for edits. If that is unacceptable to you then 4k is not for you now.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sure there will be a difference in image quality when you shoot at longer focal lengths.

Have you never noticed how with most optical zoom lenses the longer the focal length the softer the image becomes for all kinds of reasons. To expect a 12x shot to be just as sharp as an 18x or 24x shot, whether optically or digitally done is crazy, especially at this price point.

In practice the AX100's clear image zoom is virtually transparent at 4K and compares very well to most purely optical zooms. I've just never been a fan of electronic stabilisation as it tends to un-naturally grab and release the image as it tries to hold it steady.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, I'm talking about panning the AX100 that gives countless problems in 4K
Panning and panning only. the framerate doesn't have much to do with it. It's the processing of the AX100, not the lens, not the shutter: the processing, how can I say it better? .. recording the frames into the solid state memory card or whatever it will be.
the stabilization produces more problems , again PANNING. that's the only thing under discussion here.
cinealta ex1/r never had any problem panning, and they shoot 30p . care to explain that?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

the AX1 sports a small sensor, things are easier moving data from a smaller sensor, no doubts. I believe that the recording process (on any camera) involves guessing coded in the software. To make things moving faster. That I believe. And the guessing in the AX100 got confused of was written to move too much guessed data within the actual data captured.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Resolution and sharpness. HUGE difference between an HD EX1 and the 4K AX100.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sensor size makes no difference when it come to moving data. Pixel count makes a difference, more pixels = more data, but size is largely irrelevant.

Frame rate makes a massive difference to motion and pan judder. Of course you also have to have a display that can cope with higher frame rates to be able to take advantage of them or see the benefits. Do you think Peter Jackson shoots at 48fps just for the hell of it, do you think James Cameron is shooting much of his Avatar sequel at 48fps just for kicks?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

my friend, I had to sell the ex1r because of the money but still today I miss it. That camera did everything right. Now 4K is here to stay and life goes on.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

yes your right, it didn't come out right. Now about the "guessing" part ? am I the only one believing that there may be a considerable amount of "guessing" in the processing?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Alister, are you planning to do a ax100 review?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

look , of course twice the frames are better , but that doesn't explain why a building becomes curved for a while when panning. Guessing may be an explanation for that. since it's not optical, must be something else that more frames can't explain.
more frames per second are mostly for slow motion. Don't get smart on me now. Let's try to explain the building curved on pans. regardless of the number of the frames involved.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Curved objects = rolling shutter.

EX1 sensor = fewer pixels + designed for video = faster read out = less rolling shutter.
AX100 sensor, designed for photos + more pixels = slower read out = more rolling shutter.

EX1 $8K
AX100 $2K

You get what you pay for.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

My AX100 review is here:

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony, can you PLEASE add a firmware update that allows us to assign the top handle button (the "photo" button) for focus expansion?

The button you have today for that is in the absolute WORST place on the camera. It's absolutely impossible to reach with your finger. And, I'm absolutely certain that no Sony engineer, designer and camera tester can reach it with their fingers either. I'm quite surprised that an important function like this was allowed to exist in such and knowingly inaccessible place.

You did this for the NX70, please for it for the AX100. It's a bit of a embarrassing joke right now that Sony can easily fix today.

I was hoping Alister would mention this out loud in his review. (They might actually listen to him if he shined the light on it...and I'm sure he must agree with me on this.)

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I would be surprised if Sony would make a change true a firmware update, on the nex-ea50 there where many features asked by users to improve upon or to add of which the possibility to change the iso with the dial on the side (like you can with the shutter) instead of having 3 fixed selectable iso values with a switch which was my top one on the list. Sony did release one firmwareupdate but that included options nobody asked for.

Improvements are usually made with new models, like when people ask for the possibility to have 4K on the rx10 which I understand the sensor is capable off yet I"m sure that won't happen, unless they bring out a rx10 4K model.

As much as Alister is a respected filmmaker, I don't think Sony would listen to his reviews and make changes based on his findings, at least not on existing products, by the time Alister has a review ready Sony already has another camera in the pipeline with all focus on that one :)