|
Quote:
|
Wow, i can not believe i did not find this thread earlier... These people are literally the lowest of the low, absolute sleezballs. It is so disgusting I don't even know what to say.
Bring your own extremely expensive equipment and talent, so that I can make more money... and you may get paid less than minimum wage, if I feel like it. What a world! |
Nothing special here
"camara man needed July 7th with his own camera high def Reply to: lionheart_film@yahoo.com Date: 2007-06-27, 8:31AM CDT looking for a second camera man with his own camera to help me shoot a weding I'am looking for somone with his own high def camera the shoot on sat july 7 from 5pm to little pass midnight maybe 12:30 AM the pay is $12:50 an hour if intersted please call me at 832-866-2032 more job and better pay will be avilable later thank you * Location: Houston * Compensation: $12:50 an hour about 7 hour * This is a part-time job. * OK for recruiters to contact this job poster. * Phone calls about this job are ok. * Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests." |
The people on Craigslist NYC are on a rampage flagging all the work for free posts. Great News!
Josh, I think a large part of the issue such as HDV camera people working for $12.50/hr has to do as much with people who are brain dead when it comes to economics as much as greed and exploitation. I'd usually respond to a post like that with my rate and reason why. Cost of gear, maintenance, car used to go to the shoot. The problem is that often the people accepting that work are also brain dead economically and thus, the two meet. Working for low pay does NOT yield higher paying work but I don't need to explain that on this list. |
The NYC'ers, from what I've seen, really just want the free posts put in another section, as opposed to abolishing them all together. I only browse the crew page, and apparently folks over there think free stuff should have its own section.
|
"camera people working for $12.50/hr has to do as much with people who are brain dead when it comes to economics as much as greed and exploitation.. "
i think one has to look at the other side .. the job is in Houston area .. what the min wage in Texas ? i know persons who are school teachers in Dallas and during the summer they take jobs at 6.50hr .. there isn't overtime pay after 8hr in TX like CA ... many here are beyond the 12.50 wage BUT it is $100 for 8 hrs ..it's above min wage so how is it greed ? for those of you that have hired a video person for your wedding - how much did you pay ? you found somebody within your budget ... that could be anywhere from 300-10,000 ... somebody getting paid 500 should they hire a camerapersons at ? 500 day ? ... the whole structure of any busness is MARK UP and you need to make a profit to saty in business .. can somebody say $X is the RATE that nobody should work under ? .. the min rate is min wage ..seems persons paying under min wage are the one's exploiting ?? how many here have worked for FREE on a project for a day ?- why wasn't that explotation? everybody's exploitation standard is different - all depends where you are on the ladder - if you're at the bottom then 12.50 dosen't look too bad ... if you're up a few steps 100 day is exploitation ... it's the same where ever you are on the ladder .. i get offers for 1500 day ( no equipment ) for commercials - IMO they are cheap - the going rate is 2500min .. then there are those that try to wiggle you at 2000 day or 2200 ... many would be very happy to make 1500 day and probably think anybody complaining about it must be brain dead too!!! so from my step on the ladder anybody working under 2500 day is being exploited !!! the pay for a camerapersons seems to range from ZERO to 50k a day ... any job/wage that one finds out rages, exploited etc then it's not the job for you . back in the 80-90's it was places like roger corman , cannon films etc - these were production lines making movies .. you had to wait in a LONG line for the opportunity to be exploited .. these jobs were where one learned their skills ..when you didn't like the wage you moved on to the next place .. IMO if you want to see some low rates - just keep an eye on the street when 3000-4000 REDS are let loose .... |
Sorry, but unless you're knowingly undercharging to gain clients or something, there's no excuse for $12.50 an hour WITH YOUR OWN HD GEAR. I'm still way cheap to the point that I'm sure if I disclosed my rates here some of you would poo on my head, but I'm not THAT cheap.
|
Quote:
I appreciate what everyone is saying, of course. I see those craigslist posts and you gotta wonder what at some of them. But at the same time, a very competitive industry + lots of people who want in = lowered wages. I suddenly feel like my Dad - Every day he went to school, walking 50 miles, through 10 feet of snow, and it was uphill - both ways! And back then, you liked it! |
This thread has been going for nearly three years, and it could probably go on forever, but I'm not sure that it's accomplishing anything. Hopefully we've got better things to do than to gripe about clueless ads on Craigslist. In that light, I think it's about time that we wound this thing down. Expect closure not long from now when it reaches 1,000 posts. Thanks in advance,
|
How's this for looney tunes! Drive from NY to Ohio to shoot through the weekend and drive back. All for $100. Sheesh why not hire a local kid and it's even too low for that!
_________________________ DV CAMERA MAN needed for PRO FOOTBALL CAMP in OHIO this weekend! (Chelsea) Reply to: Info@podcastGO.com Date: 2007-06-28, 1:30PM EDT We are in need of 1 camera guy for Friday - sunday to shoot with our current cameraman in Ohio. We will pay for trip hotel and give you small pay. I need a Hustler, good, hard working, camera man. We supply all equipment Requirments are as follows: 1) needs to be honest and working knowledge of DV camera HVX200 Panasonic a PLUS 2) Valid Drivers Lic and full knowledge of Stick Shift Toyota land Cruiser (which is our production truck) 3) Ready to drive to Toledo Ohio to shoot Pro Foot Ball players at kids day Camp leaving on Friday shooting Saturday and coming back Sunday If you are interested please send your resume with phone number to us ASAP. The Camp is this weekend so I need someone fast. Thank you it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests Compensation: 100 dollars |
Don't Close Thread Please!
Chirs, I really think newbies learn from this thread! Don't close it please!.
I'm sure there are many "silent" viewers who learn. I know for a FACT that some of these lowball posters read this too because one actually contacted me after reading my post here about their ad. We're teaching both the folks who are looking for work and those who post those ads in ignorance (and some are simply ignorant, not rip-off artists). This thread is a great way for some of us to see what OUR standards are as working professionals too. Quote:
|
I agree that newbies can learn from this thread -- but does it really take 66 pages of posts to get the point across? What if I made it a "sticky" so it's always on top. Does it still have to go on forever? There's nothing *new* here.
|
I'll try to add something productive here, though I do agree with Chris, the point has been made.
On Craigslist, if you read the rules of posting, if you post under "TV & Radio Jobs" your post MUST contain a monetary payment. It can't be "bolster your reel", "great times and good food" or "percentage of final profits". Any ad that does not offer payment for services cannot be posted under the jobs heading. Craigslist is policed by its members, simply by flagging. If you see a post that does not offer money under the jobs heading. FLAG IT. One person cannot get a post removed. However, i don't think it takes that many different flaggers to remove a post. If we actively flagged these posts, it would prevent people from using that avenue to try and get work done for free. I'm in the Portland area. I invite anyone else in the Portland area to take a couple of minutes at the end of the day to check the listings, and flag illegitimate posts. |
I love this thread!
Quote:
I, for one, get a cheap giggle out of seeing what people are offering on Craigslist in the rest of the country. Its a good place for us to vent about ridiculous clients and expectations. Please don't close it while so many of us are still participating... |
Thanks Brian. I couldn't have said it better! I don't think it's as much of a learning experience as much as a place for us to get a good laugh and try to top each others' finds and like Brian said, the ratings aren't bad either. However, this thread is a good consolidation of these types of posts for someone to see trends and patterns of how folks will word things to get something for nothing or next to nothing thereby possibly helping new people to the industry spot a waste of time or losing money or gear.
|
Chris, this thread is our own Entertain DV section. Now if the thread is getting long and causing indexing issue or such, we could start a *new* one... ;)
|
Quote:
The most popular thread on this site is 4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project with 172,298 views and 2,974 posts. It began a few months before this one. It's still the king, but we've got several threads on DV Info Net that are well over 1,000 posts, such as Homemade 35mm Adapter with 185,096 views and 1,516 posts. So no this is not by far the most popular thread on the site. But that's not the point anyway, unless the primary goal is just to build the biggest thread, in which case you're a third of the way there with a long way to go. A little ways back, a comment was directed at Chris Ward (a friend of mine and one of the original members of this site) stating that he "must not have read this entire thread." How can *anyone* outside of its core contributors be expected to read all 66 pages of it, when it's just the same thing over and over again? There's no progression in this topic. Nothing changes. It's kind of like a broken record. And I'm not sure that anybody here is really expecting it to change (kudos to Bert Smyth though for pointing out the CL flagging process). Some of you guys remind me of a group of old ladies sitting around on the front porch clucking about the deplorable state of the neighborhood. Key word: sitting. Not doing anything about it. Okay, so we've spent 980 posts recognizing a bad trend. What next? What are you going to *do* about it -- are you just going to watch that never-ending trainwreck continue to unfold, or are you going to actively flag those ads per Bert's suggestion and help make CL a better place for the effort? If the primary goal here is to educate folks about the value of their time, isn't that purpose better served with a comprehensive, informed document in an article format of a few pages, rather than an endless string of posts pointing out ridiculous CL ads? Who's willing to submit such an article for the benefit of educating newbies, if that really is the goal? Or... if the appeal of this thread is really about its entertainment value, then shouldn't it belong in Area 51, which is where the rest of our "news of the weird" goes? Finally there's one other consideration. I'm not so sure that I'm comfortable with all of the content lifted directly from CL and copied here verbatim, especially in such a negative spirit. I'm wondering if it constitutes a copyright violation (if this thread ever disappears completely, you'll know it's because I got a knock on the door from CL attorneys). So as a site owner I have to weigh the value of this thread -- whatever that is -- against the potential copyright issue and the generally negative aspect in which CL is portrayed here. I sure wouldn't want to see a similar thread about DV Info Net elsewhere on the web (believe me it's been tried, but has yet to happen to this extent). So that's my take on this deal, just so you know. |
Flagging down those posts is the way to go about it. I know of at least one other forum that has a Craigslist flagging thread going. They post the link, and people from all over who wouldn't normally see it, get to flag it to death in short order. It helps minimize the time of visibility in those illegal posttings.
Along with prohibition of non-paying jobs in TV-Radio section, it's also prohibited to post anything that refers you to another site to apply. That mainly applies to all those ridiculous ads for reality show casting, models needed, etc. Especially since many of those referred sites are bogus agencies trying to get you to pay for the privilege of something that's free. -gb- |
Come on, Chris, we old ladies need some way to vent, from time to time. This provides the perfect venue for just that.
It's just an innocuous way to blow off some steam. It's as if this thread were the forum's water cooler. |
"We are in need of 1 camera guy for Friday - sunday to shoot with our current cameraman in Ohio. We will pay for trip hotel and give you small pay. I need a Hustler, good, hard working, camera man. We supply all equipment "
again i have to ask ( in general ) what is the difference between these no/low paying jobs and somebody on DV info doing a no budget project and asking friends to help ( another word for work) out for a day ( or several days) with no pay ? ... many of these no pay , exploitation jobs are starting jobs for those with no experience ( i know many advertise for experinece but in the end they pick between those that replied) ... or perhaps somebody wants to try their hand at shooting football or somebody has never used a hvx200 ? so here you get to try out the HVX and get a little pay using it ?... |
Maybe 'Job Offers: the Good, the Bad and the Silly' deserves its own forum.
Perhaps there could be a rule saying 'You cannot just copy a post from craigslist'. They can summarize the notice in their own words, if they want. It might encourage actual discussion issues, instead of just kvetching. I know a lot of people post 'How much should I charge' questions, which is always an important topic, and sort of related, IMO. 'Ridiculous offers' and 'how much to charge' basically go to how you break into a highly competitive industry. As we always say, you can't tell individual people how much to charge, or how much to pay. Nonetheless, people always ask the question, and the many helpful people of DVInfo lay out the issues - consider travel time, use of your equipment, etc. Of course, to kvetch is human, and where better to bellyache than an internet message board? |
Quote:
DV Info Net is about sharing useful information that you can take with you into your day. The gist of this thread is useful if it can educate newbies about the value of their time, but I don't think it needs to be an endless gripe session in order to do that. Again: I have to weigh the watercooler / bellyache value against the liability, as I explained in the last paragraph in my post above. Meanwhile, Donatello is right, there's not a lot of difference between some of these CL ads and our own Helping Hands listings. Honestly I can't sympathize too much for the watercooler angle. In terms of what this thread can actually *accomplish,* the best thing I can see happening is some proactivity regarding the flagging of those ads, as Greg noted above. Otherwise this whole thing, whether it's entertaining or not, has a pretty bad vibe to it. |
Kill it, Sticky it, Your call
Quote:
Move it to another more appropriate topic, kill it, sticky it, lock it off, whatever you decide. As a locked off sticky it can serve as a resource of ideas of what NOT to do. Killed and entirely gone from the site might not be the best idea (my opinion of course) due to the humor loss or information loss. But you are totally right that 3 years and 66 pages should be enough to get the point across. jason |
Please don't lock off this thread Chris, it is just so much fun!
|
But I keep finding it amazing how many new ways to exploit!
For $12/hr the relationship counsler wants you to edit/shoot and maybe some typing and data entry too! I suspect there's no evil intent. Just another ignorant poster. FCP Video Editor (East Village) Reply to: job-363109321@craigslist.org Date: 2007-06-29, 2:33PM EDT Talented video editor with Final Cut Pro expertise for documentary about couples/relationship work. Geared to help singles and couples learn new communication skills so as to have more peace and love rather than struggle and pain. I do relationship counseling, give lectures and workshops. My home and office is in the East Village. Great opportunity for creative editor/filmmaker. Graphic design skills are a plus. $12 per hour. Part Time. Flexible hours. Must have your own set up. (if willing/able to do other tasks, typing, data entry, etc, more hours may be available) Please email resume and cover letter that indicates you’ve read this ad. In the subject line say something that really says you read this ad. It helps if your response catches our eye. |
Chris, it's not simply water color. These ads exist because there's a lot of ignorance by both potential employer and employee. In those cases I really do think these posts educate.
Only over time can one see the patterns and only over time does one discover a diversity of misconceptions. While I don't respond to exploiters (they already know what they're doing) we need to educate those who may be victims. I believe those people do read these threads and we've even seen some discussion why certain ads may or may not be acceptable since we all have different thresholds. In cases where I see posters who may be ignorant regarding the value of our services, I do respond to them. It's all about education Chris, educating those entering the field as service provider or client, warning those about what we perceive may be an exploitive situation. If the education ends (this thread), we allow all that to continue unabated. Us veterans might laugh at some of the posts around this "watering hole" but many others are learning. Some do post. Some read silently, but they learn. |
Like I said... isn't that education process better served in an article format? Instead of 66 pages of laughing and pointing fingers?
|
Articles are not living documents. They're static. While the posts today might look the same as they did 3 years ago, they're actually different. As gear changes (affordable HD variations) the posts have changed.
We see the "valuation" of HD gear the same as 1/3" chip SD gear for example. We can see that it's gone beyond HDV to some of the more expensive HD gear. There's been the change from all "cheap" gear is alike to all gear is alike with requests for varicams, p2 gear etc mixed in with HDV and DV. This is something we didn't see in the past. We see the change from video skills as a specialized craft (that can be exploited) to one that has the same degraded value as other skills as my most recent post. Editor (and they really want a shooter too) along with a little typing and data entry as a "plus" skill. You will note the posts are less frequent here than they used to be. That's not due to a lack of interests (at least on my part). I think we've become more discerning as the list grows. No longer "work on my movie for free" is enough to qualify. Posts usually include the newer trends I note above. Posts now include requests for more expensive equipment for example. They include newer/changes in job descriptions. They've changed from "wishful thinking make my pilot/movie" posts that will be seen by X to "legit" for profit businesses calling for "experienced" interns or entry level positions whose pay might be expected for starters were they not to include "must have your own gear." In short, to my eyes, this document lives, changes over time, and we as both participants and discerning editors add posts that show such changes. If anything, this thread warrants a separate searchable index but that would be a burdensome job. Think of it more like an editable wiki with new categories being added with subtle and sometimes not so subtle changes. Yes, maybe it's large and growing to what you may view as "extreme" lengths but that alone speaks volumes about what's going on in our industry. The length itself speaks. When talking about someone afflicted with pituitary giantism one can describe the height or actually witness the growth over time. The latter is much more compelling. The continued growth of this thread has meaning to the industry. It's genuinely unique in its testament. Quote:
|
I've skimmed this thread from time to time. Reading it earnestly every day isn't very useful - it really is the same thing over and over.
Nonetheless, all that skimming does effect how I bring people into my projects. I've told everyone I work with about the huge animous towards people who want the sky and don't want to pay. If we become one of those exploiters, no one serious is going to want to work with us. Whatever the rate, I believe in treating people with respect for their time and talent. So my point is, having the thread here was useful in avoiding some pit falls. The fact that people keep adding to the thread suggests there's a real issue worthy of discussion. Hence my earlier post, that maybe a new forum could be established where we discuss the issues, instead of the public ridicule. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Look Craig, I really appreciate your feedback. You're the first person to present what I'd consider to be a valid case for preserving this thread. I'm not yet entirely convinced that it needs to go on in its present form though. My problem with it concerns its ugliness, and I'm not interested in any rationalization for why it's like that -- I'm interested in how we can effectively change it. Yes I fully agree that there is the potential to educate, just so we're all clear on that. But it is going to change, and I'm open to feedback on the best way to do that. If somebody just wants to bitch about CraigsList, then they'll be disappointed with happens to this thread. If somebody wants to *actually put a stop* to these ridiculous job offers / demands which are ruining our industry, then they should start using the Craigslist ad flagging process, as Bert Smyth and Greg Boston have pointed out. If somebody wants to educate our readership about what's happening to our industry, there's better approaches to it than the way this thread has been presented. For those who truly care about that education process, please work with me on improving how we do that. |
Chris,
I agree in principle with your statements and I'd also like to point out that this thread is probably the first, of this kind of breath and depth, on the web. I work within the industry in Hollywood, and most of my reality clients use craigslist to advertise, yes, even the "big budget" network ones. They've been using this tactic for years now to get zero cost acting -- oops, sorry -- reality talent, PAs et al, so I guess it was only a matter of time before the "remedy" spread to all areas. So I've actually pointed some of them to this thread as a caveat that their budget slashing brilliance may make them a laughing stock in the industry, or, at the very least, that we the crew are on to them. In that light, I think this thread, and its continuance, may serve as something of a preventative cure for the craigslist portion of the disease, anyway. And, like any wellness cure, it's difficult to see its efficacy in terms of potential disasters avoided, of idiot jobs not applied for, of basic fees held out for. Now I know that ours is a camera forum and really this may be more of a socio political issue, but saving the union fora, where else would an issue like this find its home? Especially when those people who are being targeted are beginners and people with less experience and likely no union affiliations, who really have only sites like these as their information resources? JM2c, FWIW. Thanks for the great work! Cheers Chris |
Can Craigslist actually remove posts based on their pay grade? It seems like a fairly ambiguous decision for Craigslist to be allowed to make. So what if I offer $20 a day to anyone with an FX1? Is craigslist really going to require me to raise my compensation? Based on what? So I don't hurt their feelings? :)
An all-around "keep your compensation reasonable" reminder on craigslist forms might make a difference, as well as initiating some continuing aura of shame on those who offer less than acceptable pay for the work they require. |
Ben
No, you can't flag based on low price, but you can flag if it's miscategorized as a paying job when it isn't. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Chris has an excellent point.
That being said, my typical DVinfo experience usually goes something like XL-h1(to offer some help), Private Classified(to try and get something on the cheap), this thread (to get a good laugh and see if anyone copies posts from people I know) I don't think that this thread needs all 65 pages, you could probably erase a good 50 or so and no one would care, but I think it's fun to come here and read the lengths people are going. It's kind of a bottom feeder market watch. No it doesn't really help the reputation of this site, but it is entertaining. I do understand chris' concern though. This doesn't offer a real useful resource but it's just so darn fun to read. (Unless you know, reading is a resource, in which case there's that...) |
I would bet that as newbies join DVInfo, this thread title catches them and they read a bit . . . and learn . . . because this may be type of people who'd otherwise respond to these craigslist ads.
I do think it warrants and index of the different types of job offers so people can easily find what types of "affronts" there are. Make my movie for nothing (credit, karma, peanuts . . butter sandwiches). Working with award winners for nothing. My film is going to be seen by x (event, decision maker), for nothing. Promise future paying work. Risk damage to your equipment. Outsourcing to you but I'm getting most of the money. Contribute thousands of dollars worth of gear for nothing. Pay scales not commensurate with experience, equipment used. For profit business that pays little or nothing. Incongruous skill sets (shooting, typing, answering phones, gaffer, etc). Unreasonable travel. Ignorant vs exploitive ads, etc. Probably other variants I'm forgetting at the moment. Some would need several keywords if they fall into multiple categories. The above could make this into a useful resource for newbies (both job seekers and would be clients). As to what WE (I) do to help this situation in our industry. I flag exploitive posts. I respond to ignorant posts with my rates and explain why. |
Just to be existential. Post 1000.
Maybe the thread should morph into something useful and living (with specific examples as we already do) and comments should be constructive rather than simply derogatory/derisive . . . but humor, even negative, can help make a point or why would The Daily Show and Colbert Report be so popular. |
what i call a ridiculous job offers /demands ..
last month i was called on a monday at 5pm ... offering me work ( DP commercial) for the next day ... they wanted me to catch a 7:30pm flight that evening ... when i explained i was flying out the next morning to see my grand kids - they then up the $$ to 2X my rate ... i said the grand kids were expecting me, the producer then went on about how kids should experience " let downs , broken promises " in their life " just like all other kids" or they won't be able to relate to their friends !!! when i said NO thank you , they then offered 4X day rate for the day ... now - one has to ask what kind of problems are they having on the set if you get a call the night before the shoot ? and they are willing to pay 4X day rate for the day !! ... i flew to see the grand kids .... |
Ha! don, you know that's rediculous 4x your rate that must be some sort of disaster! Sounds like you'd be walking into a war zone or something. you'd be crazy to want to do that...
... so uh next time, uh, let me send you my number and you can pass it along to me ;) |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:03 PM. |
DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2025 The Digital Video Information Network