George Romero Doc Needs Shooters & Pa's
 

GEORGE ROMERO FEATURE DOCUMENTARY NEEDS SHOOTERS & PA'S WITH CARS -- MAY 27 - JUNE 22

DEAD ON: The life and cinema of George A. Romero, a feature documentary on George Romero (Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead, Creepshow, Land of the Dead), is currently in production and is looking for camera people who have experience using the Canon XL 2.

The Chicago based crew will be in Los Angeles from May 26 - June 23 and is looking for experienced camera people who are willing to work on this exciting production for credit, gas and food.

Current participants already include: Stephen King, John Landis, John Waters, Wim Wenders, Danny Boyle, Quentin Tarantino, Robert Rodriquez, Richard Linkletter, Rob Zombie, Penn (Penn & Teller), Roger Ebert and many others.

Let us know about your availability, whether you have transportation and if you have a camera or other equipment of your own (lights, sound, tripod).

There is no pay for this project but the film has already secured festival play at a number of film festivals around the globe even though it is still in production.

A Film by Rusty Nails!
Please contact: William/whpisarri@hotmail.com/773.369.2382

I object....
 

Why should videography be the only type of employment where the minimum wage law is violated with seeming impunity? You are unethical to ensnare wannabe videographers with a project like this.

At least pay minimum wage to these poor newbies and avoid violating federal law while offering them the modicum of dignity that some small amount of pay offers.

Do you wish to explain why you are above the minimum wage laws? I'd love to hear it.

Tip McPartland

Tip? Supply 'n Demand . .

Grazie

What, no interview with Tom Savini????

Can't be much of a doc then.

(Snark) I'm a Romero fan.

As a hobbyist, I'd jump at this if I were available, which alas I am not! Not all shooters are in it as a career. I have a garden, but I don't get paid to till it.

Tom Savini is the f'ing man :) He NEEDS to be in this documentary. His commentaries on Dawn of the Dead & Day of the Dead pwn :)

I wasn't aware that one could "secure" festival play particularly if you are like Rusty Nails---someone who isn't exactly well renowned in the world of film. This sounds to me like a typical attempt to get people to work for free by doing a bit of the old snake oil sales

You can't get around Federal Minimum Wage laws. In the film industry, people just don't report violators:

"Do you want the job or not? Ok, then. Put the alligator suit back on and jump out of the moving car when I say, "action!'"

I have one of Tom Savini's books on the SFX stuff in those movies. Pretty interesting even though I thought it was going to be more instructional than documentary.

Don't forget the octopus motor...
 

I have ranted against these types of ads on various forums and lists in the past, and I still believe that a producer should offer some payment to everyone working.

True, hobbyists might enjoy the experience, but a producer should want at least aspiring professionals if taping people such as listed in this post. Remember, sometimes there aren't second takes.

Obviously this is not a direct reflection on this poster, but oftentimes these producer types won't even bother to send the footage for the "employee's" reel. If supply and demand is the reason for people working for free, that doesn't sound like a fair marketplace. Maybe some of the "supply" should asked to get paid, then there would be a bit of pressure on the "demand" to at least pay minimum wage.

Even Ed Wood paid people.

Tip

Tip, don't get me wrong, I'm completely with you. I flag posts like this when I see them on Craigslist--it keeps it from being a "labor" market.

Xxx
 

Remember the "3 Xs": (The three reasons to take on a project.)

X-posure
X-perience
X-tremely good money

Only one of those has anything to do with getting paid.

"Copy, meal, and credit" is a standard deal in indie / student productions. The minimum wage law doesn't apply because it's not an employment situation. Does your friend have to pay you minimum and fill out Social Security forms for the two hours you helped him clean out his garage? Do other people get outraged that he didn't offer to pay you?

These guys are paying for <i>gas!</i> That's more than most indies do!

Hey mate, I'm in Perth. Shouldn't be too hard to find a good camera in that price range. Where abouts in PErth are you going to be?
In Fremantle we have the Film and TV Institute, www.fti.asn.au, that rent out equipment, but more often than not that have a notice board up with people wanting to sell 2nd hand gear.

It'd be cool to hok up with you when you're over and go looking cause I'm need of an upgrade too; only when you come to Australia I'm leaving Australia ;)

Camera's in Perth
 

I live in Perth and its hard to find a bargain on good quallity camera's.
I bought my XL2 on the internet because it was 2 grand $Aus cheaper than buying local.The local agent for Panasonic was going to let me have the 100
for $5000.Go online and check the classified in our local rag called the Quakka,occationaly you can pick up some good gear.I am also a member of FTI in Fremantle,I havent seen any camera's on the board for a few months but you can hire XL1's there.Remember we are ony a tiny population ,so you have to realy hunt around for any bargains.Our main proffesional video camera and eqiupment shop is www.plazacameras.com.au.hope this helps.

Yeah Plaza is definately the way to go. Thinking of heading there in the next week.

Agreed, but this ad is written as if this is a professional production---you know, the Chicago based crew will be in Los Angeles-----a listing of some very heavy hitters-----and then of course, the we can't pay you but you will become famous like us at the very end.

What would be the impetus to write a less than professional request for a project like this?

No offence intended, but I guess I still don't see the problem here...if you don't agree...don't participate, you've said your piece, let folks weigh that aginst their willingness to work for something that may or may not make it big, but seems to be painted as a professional effort.

I agree with alot of what has been said here...

1. If you don't want to participate, don't.

2. As stated above, this is absolutely NOT an employment situation and federal wage laws don't apply. If they did, every indie or student production would have a serious problem!

I do find it a little odd that a production of this stature (and I am going off of the names of participants listed when I say stature) would be looking for free help off of dvinfo.net. Something does not jive up with this situation in my opinion...I have an XL2, a tripod and some lighting...but I just don't know...

Call me suspicious, but I mean, the dude is using a hotmail address...

Wanted, people to clean my garage for free...
 

I agree that friends helping friends is fine, whether cleaning a garage or making a film. I of course have volunteered to help my friends before as have us all, whether moving furniture or lightstands, and they in turn have helped me. I also lower my camera and location sound day rates for deserving but underfinanced friends.

But this kind of cooperation among friends cannot be confused with trading on the hopes and dreams of strangers to persuade them to WORK for free. And if you doubt that filmmaking is work, and among the hardest work there is at times, and certainly with some of the longest hours, then you haven't been on set very much.

But let's help these poor, poor producers -- after all, they have no money. Well, maybe they have a little, they just don't want to spend it on you.

Let's see, they can afford to bring a "crew" including themselves out from Chicago to LA and maintain them in a rather expensive city for almost a month. I wonder if they're crashing on friends' couches or sleeping in their cars, I would guess not. Perhaps instead they're sleeping in nice lodging as well they should. No doubt they are eating at decent places, also as well they should.

But they don't have ANY money to pay the camera operators who put their subjects on the screen. Well, to each their own, those who support this type of recruitment should call them right away and volunteer. And by all means bring your Varicam!

After all, each and every cam op will achieve fame and fortune from the film festival play alone! You can be certain that all festival attendees will have palm pilots or scratch pads ready as the credits roll and will write down your name, ferret out your phone number, and call you first after these screenings! And these future gigs will pay! Your career will be launched!

Anyway, back to reality, no, this is nothing like helping a friend clean out his garage. What it is like is trying to get people YOU DON"T KNOW to clean your garage for you without pay.

Anyway, my garage is an incredible mess, you supporters of this post certainly wouldn't mind coming over and helping clean it for free, would you?

I'll buy the pizza!

Tip

If you can work free, work for this guy...
 

This project is obviously straight from the heart (although dealing with, well, other areas of the anatomy). It will help the general public to learn about potentially lifesaving issues.

Those who are contemplating devoting time to the George Romero feature film, please consider giving this important and public spirited project your time and energy instead.

Charlie... is heliobacter pylori a causal factor in your illness as it is in other ulcers? If not, perhaps there is another organism that does play a role, albeit as yet undiscovered as was h. pylori's role in ulcers for so many years. Consider drinking colloidal silver to kill a broad spectrum of organisms in the intestines, you may get lucky.

Low and deferred pay offer shows class...
 

This poster is doing his best to confer some human dignity on the people he's enlisting. Deferred pay is a very reasonable approach to bootstraps filmmaking, and some money up front is even better.

Your tenacious outrage is bizarre.
 

Are you kidding? This happens all the time! Almost every damn indie I've ever worked on, most of the cast and crew were doing it for the experience or exposure and, at the outside, some faint hope of profits from the backend!

I just wrapped principal photography on a feature where I was DP, Art Director, Key Grip, etc, etc, etc, so don't tell me how much work goes into filming. And guess what? I didn't get paid. Yes I "own a piece of the picture" but that and $4.50 will get me a latte at Starbucks.

What it comes down to is love. If I was into indie /guerilla filming only for the money, I'd be an idiot. I'd be better off working as a cog-wheel in Hollywood.

Are there plenty of con-artists out there who will try and cheat you out of a lot of hard work? Sure. But they usually promise the moon. This guy is totally up-front about what he's offering: not much.

Take it or leave it.

But, bitch endlessly about it? Dude!

Tip, I totally agree with you. I don't think we'll be hearing from this person again because it was his first post and more than likely his only post. I started a dedicated forum about these ridiculous job offers a while back and it has grown exponentially over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, it shows how prevalent these types of posts and projects are but some are so ridiculous you just have to laugh. I think the worst of these types of posts are when these people absolutely demand so much for so little or nothing. I think we have all worked on something for experience but that must end at some point. These types of reasons have been exploited and overused by the shadier types and now you don't know who to trust. It's not just can you help, it's you must have this and must have that, provide all equipment and by the way, I can't pay you. That's what bothers me the most. I think these types of people are truly mentally ill to call on strangers and actually expect all of this for no compensation. When you can't pay, you take what you can get!!

There are red flags with this post and the point about the Chicago crew. Somebody is getting paid. What makes this even worse is that they want you to use your own gear for free, something that is costing you money!! On other projects, I have seen ridiculous amounts of "hidden" money magically appear and spent for last minute needs to make something happen. But, they claimed they couldn't even pay P.A.'s $100 day. This industry is full of liars and manipulators and you just have to learn how to spot them before getting taken. This is not a friend in high school wanting help to shoot a project for fun. This is a project with high profile people listed and should be funded as such. What makes it even worse is that key positions such as a shooter are being solicited for no pay. That is rarely if ever done for a high profile project. For those that don't think this is a big deal, they probably have other full time jobs and/or still live at home so paying bills is not necessarilly a priority. I would really like to know how many people have gotten hired on a huge project with great pay based on a screen credit from an independent project that nobody has ever heard of! Even though the terms are seemingly up front, this is still a bad deal for whoever provides their gear and/or works for free.

Ridiculous Job Offers & Demands
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=33082

Austin, TX Crew Needed
 

We'll be shootinga 'long' short film starting in mid June in the Austin metro area. Anyone and everyone who is interested in helping out on ANY level should contact me at lonbreedlove@yahoo.com. The most important people I need, however, are people who could aid in a little pre-production, organizational work. Thanks for your interest,

Lon

Ironically James, that's the first place I thought of moving the initial post in this thread to. I agree with the idea of asking for help on a project for low or no compensation but only if you are willing to take people with low or no experience to match.

If I state that someone 'must have' this or 'must have' that, then I 'must have' some money to pay them.

-gb-

There are plenty of actors/crew that have worked on low/no budget indie films, but that was based on the story alone. Big names, not just your average craigslist actors.

I'd just like to point out that the whole "work free experience/exposure" thing is not limited to just cinema/video production--it seems to be present in all art/art-related fields ("paint my mural for free--everyone'll see it on the side of my building and you'll be famous!" "design my website for free! Everyone'll see it and you'll get tons of free work!" "design my company's logo for free, and I'll refer you to people!" Something about art, I guess.

Hence the term, "starving artist".

Clean my garage... _iotch
 

Please, Eric, no "b" word, children may read these posts.

But you'd probably expect to be paid to till someone else's garden, wouldn't you? Especially if they entered it in the anuual garden show and won a cash prize based in part on the quality of your work.

Not if I offered to do it for free if he told his neighbors about what a wonderful job I did :)

Cole, I think the point that is being missed here is that just how many times could you do something for free with referrals as the only compensation. Where does it end? If everything is a trade then how the hell does anyone make a living? Free or deferred help should be confined to a group of friends and not solicited to the public. The unfortunate news is that there is a steady stream of young, naive people who will work for free for the truly demanding cheap asses until they finally figure it out and then another will take their place. The only thing that is a constant is that most of this free help is unskilled and the producer will usually get what they pay for. They will have to redo things and take time to explain what they need because of the lack of experience of the free help.

Thanks TIP for the support!!

It is really important to me that I try as best I can to raise awareness. In our modern day and age of highly processed foods alot of people (especially in th USA) are basically killing themselves with these highly toxic foods and chemicals.
Cancer and other diseases have become so common that it is almost expected that one will get a disease and die from it. That is NOT supposed to happen and we are supposed to thrive.

I need to get the message out that Colon Cancer & UC ARE PREVENTABLE!

H.Pylori is actually common in UC patients. I have it!

Thanks again for your support......I can use alot more from people!!

Take Care!

Camera Operator Needed for Comedy Shoot in NYC
 

DBC Production is looking for a cameraperson to shoot our upcoming comedy showcases in NYC. The dates are July 15 & August 5, 2006. The showtimes is from 7:00pm-11:00pm. All interested parties and those looking for more information can contact us at info@diamondbackbroadcasting.com. Thank you for your time.

It could be causal then, as it is for gastric ulcers. There is something doctors can give you called triple antibiotic therapy that kills h. pylori in the stomach, don't know about the intestinal tract. But also look into the silver, it is a fantastic antibiotic. Do a web search and decide for yourself.

Tip

The question then becomes one of; without the expoitation, would any newbie filmmakers be able to get to the point in their journeys where they would ever get paid? Are these exploitative producers actually the gatekeepers to the professional world? Are you trying to deny new filmmakers work by disallowing these jobs to be offered?

Devil's advocate by nature, I'd just like to get you to look at this differently, you seem fairly locked in your thinking about this.

I have no reel...would you hire me? I have my own camera and know how to light and shoot. I can also do sound and direct and edit + basic special FX and makeup and hair. But until I have a couple of free jobs, I have no reel or credibility...seems like a catch 22.

As I said earlier, if you can't pay, you take what you can get! We could split hairs about this forever. It doesn't matter if you have a reel because if it was on a project with unknowns and if what you did is not something that can be seen that you did, what kind of proof is that? How can I see what you did as a P.A., grip, etc.. Any of that could be made up without a way to verify it. You could also have the same name as someone who really did work on it. People lie on their reels and resumes all the time but when references are asked for, they're in big trouble. I am talking about what is a fact if you want to actually get a job on a real show. I have only gotten jobs on big PAYING projects soley based on the fact that I either had resume items with experience at that level or I had references who had also worked on that level. It's also about who you know. You must have verifiable and worthy credits to get the top positions.

Ways to get started... (long)
 

Cole and others,

What you should probably do is a short film, on your own. That's really what short films are for -- your calling card and instant reel to show what you and your equipment can do. Enlist friends, not strangers, to participate, or go to a community college film class where the students have a non-exploitive mutual co-op system of working together on eachother's films.

My seven and nine year old sons and one of their friends have made several very cool little films with the family DV camera. With a little bit of Dad's help they cut their films together on Premiere Pro, then actually created cool scores for them in Adobe Audition and then mastered DVDs. One of their films had the entire crew at the production company where I work ROFL.

My friend Chuck Cirino was nominated for three Webbys this year for his site Weird TV (I think it's actually www.weird.tv). On that site you can see an extremely condensed version of the spaghetti western he shot on 8 mm film when he was still a very young boy. It's pretty damn good for his age and the primitive tools avaiable then.

He grew up making more films, then got a job at a TV station, learned the video tech stuff, then started applying his talents to local commercials. Later Chuck went on to direct Jay Jay the Jet Plane and other such Saturday morning stuff, did some really great local commercials (Fred Rated at Federated with Shadoe Stevens) shot and syndicated the Weird TV series, directed a campy sci-fi T&A feature and has written scores for over 40 features, most low budget but so what.

Chuck just got hired to do comedy pieces for HBO's streaming AOL site, whatever that is. But he started with the knack for JUST DOING IT that you'll see in his spaghetti western and he's always up to SOMETHING because of his love of the craft and art of filmmaking.

My path was quite different. I got started by long-term leasing a really, really good camera for its time (JVC KY-D29 with the D-9 format) and a good Sennheiser 416, then renting that package for $200/day off ads in the Hollywood Reporter -- cheap then for 2/3" 3-chip 4:2:2 digital camera with a good mic.

Let me be clear, they were renting the camera, not hiring me, but I always wanted to come along anyway, and they usually let me. At first I was the guy who ran batteries back and forth. But I learned like a little sponge, absorbing everything, for example the strange and wonderful vocabulary of the grips and gaffers -- stingers and C-47's and so forth -- as they set the lights. I also had them teach me little things like how to roll up cables over and under like they did. I was so pathetically green, but I had this truly awesome camera and unquenchable curiosity, so there I was getting paid to learn.

I watched as the DPs white balanced the camera through colored gels to warm or cool the color temperature of the picture, I peeked at the monitor as much as I could to see the magic they were creating with light, shadow and exposure and saw how my theoretical knowledge was applied in the real world. I observed the location sound guys very closely and asked as many questions as I could get away with and still not be 86'd.

Then one day somebody asked me to mix sound since I wasn't doing much of anything else. I was so scared of clipping that those levels were way too low, but I, and my levels, had nowhere to go but up. From watching pros and fooling around myself I became a good sound man, a decent camera operator and I even have some good DP credits (check www.americawestandasone.com).

I can't remember ever working for free -- I couldn't afford to with the lease payments on my camera and other gear, not to mentio na wife, an expanding number of kids, and then there was that pesky mortgage, but I always tried to give very good value for what I was paid.

I doubt if this way into the biz would work for someone with any type of SD camera anymore, and it would be tough in the crowded HDV market, but if you got the Sony XDCAM you could probably make your monthly payment and plenty more, getting paid while you learned.

I would say though that the camera rental business became much tougher when the and XL1, the PD-150 and then the DVX-100 came out, as they were really good yet inexpensive cameras and everybody who didn't have one had a cousin who did so they didn't need to rent.

For the last two and a half years I've been primarily working as a development writer, but that's another story, although now I have the JVC HD-100 and still get the occasional paying camera gig as well as doing location sound from time to time for old client/friends.

Let me also clarify that I have absolutely no bone to pick with those willing to work for free to get experience and a reel. My objection is only to those who exploit that willingness. The bottom line is that my hat is off to anyone who loves making moving pictures and is willing to make the sacrifices it takes to do so. Peace...

Tip

My previous post was for illustration only - "Devil's Advocate".

I have a reel and the shorts I've done were less learning than I'm used to, so I've gone ahead and made a feature (it's in post). While I do see your argument, I think these exploitative producers (which the originator of this post may or may not be - unless you have evidence to the contrary) and their revolving crew of various people looking for experience are an important part of the ecosystem. They give unknown entities a way to get some credits for themselves, possibly introduce them to some larger name talent...even if just in passing, they then can say "I worked on project x with you".

I'm unsure why you are angry with these folks, if it's just on an intellectual disagreement, then this argument is a good excercise. If it's a personal experience in which you've been exploited by one of them in the past, I apologize for playing the devil's advocate...but I feel it was a necessary conversation.

This thread has debated the validty of the original poster since the second post. What research was done on this individual? Having been personally attacked on his first post to this board ever, I don't know that I would respond either, having taken the feedback that this board had immediately given. The reality is, if he's currently in production, he'll be too busy to come here and debate and stand up for himself. Nor would I want to, were I him.

I feel I've illustrated the counter point to your arguments well and will move on to other threads, thank you for your time in debating this with me in a publc forum.